What does a product manager do and how to become one - interview — vídeo y transcripción

[00:02] [Music]
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[00:14] welcome  to  the  ethnic  podcast  uh  it's
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[00:17] the  podcast  where  we  discuss  technology
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[00:18] in  startups  and  invite  some  of  the
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[00:20] smartest  people  in  in  Barcelona  to  to
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[00:22] share  their  insights  uh  the  topic  of
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[00:24] today  is  to  demystify  the  product
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[00:26] manager  role  and  and  how  to  become  one
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[00:29] uh  and  to  discuss  we've  invited  three
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[00:31] people  with  extensive  product  management
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[00:33] knowledge  first  J  de  Romero  you're
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[00:35] currently  the  CEO  and  founder  of
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[00:37] factoral  but  also  have  experience  from
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[00:39] other  sauce  companies  like  teamx  and  red
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[00:41] Booth  so  welcome  thank  you  cindra  H  the
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[00:44] second  one  we  have  is  itar  gilad  uh  you
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[00:48] uh  you  have  been  a  department  manager  at
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[00:50] Google  for  six  years  and  before  that  you
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[00:52] also  you  also  worked  in  in  several  other
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[00:55] uh  companies  uh  around  yeah  it's  uh  I've
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[01:00] been  last  six  years  in  in  uh  Google
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[01:03] mostly  on  Gmail  a  bit  of  YouTube  as  well
[01:05] 
[01:05] before  that  I  was  in  Israel  I  work  in
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[01:07] startups  working  in  big  companies  I
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[01:09] worked  for  Microsoft  for  a  while  as  a
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[01:11] product  manager  uh  but  originally  as  an
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[01:13] engineer  but  now  you're  in  Barcelona  yes
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[01:16] I'm  very  happy  it's  a  I'm  very  excited
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[01:19] about  being  here  great  and  and  and  and
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[01:21] the  last  person  we  have  uh  is  uh  is  RO
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[01:25] Deano  you're  founder  and  and  CEO  of  kipu
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[01:28] SAS  count  us  and  you're  currently  the
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[01:33] CEO  and  the  product  manager  uh  so  you
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[01:35] have  a  special  role  so  welcome  to  you  as
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[01:38] well  thank  you  for  pleasure  so  uh  to  get
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[01:41] it  started  um  I  I  was  I  was  wondering
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[01:44] because  uh  I've  been  studying  the
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[01:47] product  manager  role  over  the  last  six
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[01:48] months  and  and  I've  been  trying  to  is  is
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[01:52] there  a  definition  is  there  is  there  a
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[01:53] true  definition  a  one  sentence
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[01:55] definition  to  define  the  product  product
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[01:58] manager  role  what  do  you  think
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[02:01] um  there's  no  one  definition  every
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[02:03] company  has  a  slightly  different
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[02:05] variation  of  it  since  we  had  agile  we
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[02:07] added  also  product
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[02:09] owner  um  the  definition  that  I  like  the
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[02:13] most  today  honestly  of  all  the  many
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[02:15] things  that  product  manag  are  expected
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[02:16] to  do  is  the  person  that  is  kind  of
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[02:19] becoming  the  expert  on  the  users  the
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[02:21] customers  the
[02:23] 
[02:23] ecosystem  the  competition  and  it  manages
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[02:27] to  deliver  this  context  to  the  team  that
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[02:29] is  building  the  product  the  designers
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[02:31] the  engineers  Etc  and  manages  to  help
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[02:34] them  build  a  really  good  solution  and
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[02:36] eventually  also  manages  to  help  launch
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[02:39] this  product  track  this  performance  it's
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[02:41] a  Superman  basically  but  the  customer
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[02:44] emphasis  and  the  experti  are  really  for
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[02:46] me  the  core  core  uh  product  manager
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[02:49] skill  right  and  I  mean  uh  like  customer
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[02:52] Centric  companies  have  have  been  around
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[02:53] for  a  while  but  especially  with  emerging
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[02:56] emerging  tech  companies  last  10  20  years
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[02:58] I  mean  the  customer  Centric  companies
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[03:00] has  has  really  grown  and  and  has  the
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[03:03] product  manager  role  also  grown  in
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[03:05] popularity  and  and  usage  I  mean  we  hear
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[03:08] the  term  product  manager  much  more  today
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[03:10] than  we  did  maybe  10  years  ago
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[03:12] absolutely  I  think  uh  the  first  time  I
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[03:15] heard  of  product  manages  was  in  the  90s
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[03:17] it  was  a  novelty  back  then  um  and  it's
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[03:20] kind  of  evolved  over  the  years  uh  back
[03:23] 
[03:23] then  we  were  in  kind  of  product  Centric
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[03:25] we  thought  that  our  engineering  Wizardry
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[03:28] and  later  also  the  product  managers  we
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[03:31] will  just  overwhelm  the  World  by  by
[03:34] 
[03:34] Ingenuity  and  I  think  later  we  started
[03:37] 
[03:37] realizing  it's  not  so  much  about  us  it's
[03:39] 
[03:39] more  about  the  customers  so  I  think  the
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[03:40] product  role  changed  more  in  that
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[03:42] direction  over  the  years  uh  now  I  think
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[03:45] a  lot  of  companies  are  aware  of  product
[03:47] 
[03:47] management  but  I'm  not  sure  a  lot  of
[03:48] 
[03:49] companies  have  very  modern  perception  of
[03:51] 
[03:51] what  it  is  some  companies  still  think
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[03:53] it's  just  the  person  you  give  the
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[03:55] instructions  to  and  that  person
[03:56] 
[03:56] generates  a  spec  based  on  your  Insight
[03:59] 
[03:59] right  right  I  I  think  uh  one  thing  you
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[04:01] said  made  me  remember  a  lot  of  fights  we
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[04:03] had  at  my  previous  company  because  we
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[04:06] defined  ourselves  as  a  product  company  M
[04:08] 
[04:08] and  whatever  that  means  right  so  it
[04:10] 
[04:10] basically  meant  back  then  engineering
[04:12] 
[04:12] first  company  and  then  the  CEO  was
[04:15] 
[04:15] saying  no  we're  a  sales-driven  company
[04:17] 
[04:17] because  we  care  about  the  customers  so
[04:19] 
[04:19] at  the  end  we  were  fighting  to  say  we're
[04:21] 
[04:21] Product  Company  a  sales-driven  company
[04:22] 
[04:22] or  a  customer  first  company  and  I  think
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[04:26] it  turns  out  that  product  company  means
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[04:28] like  a  product  to  serve  our  customers
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[04:30] and  then  the  product  team  is  just  there
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[04:32] to  represent  the  customers  inside  the
[04:33] 
[04:33] company  so  that's  it's  kind  of  a  a  messy
[04:35] 
[04:35] terminology  I  think  uh  especially  with
[04:38] 
[04:38] wherever  startups  and  kind  of  companies
[04:40] 
[04:40] that  change  roles  and  and  definitions  of
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[04:42] of  parts  of  the  business  often  but  I
[04:44] 
[04:44] think  that's  something  that  we  still
[04:45] 
[04:45] need  to  properly  Define  I  guess  right
[04:48] 
[04:48] how  do  how  do  you  define  it  yeah  for  me
[04:50] 
[04:50] the  product  manager  is  like  the  CEO  of
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[04:52] the  product  no  and  this  implies  to  have
[04:54] 
[04:54] a  broader  vision  of  the  business  uh  of
[04:56] 
[04:56] the  vision  uh  of  it  and  basically  the
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[04:59] thing  is  that  uh  for  me  the  changes  that
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[05:02] that  that  come  lately  is  basically
[05:04] 
[05:04] because  one  of  the  major  competitive
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[05:07] advantage  of  any  startup  is  the  the  the
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[05:09] product  that  is  building  for  technology
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[05:12] or  for  building  a  disruptive  uh  value
[05:15] 
[05:15] proposition  to  the  market  so  basically
[05:18] 
[05:18] this  is  not  just  about  building  a  nice
[05:21] 
[05:21] uh  with  a  great  user  experience  product
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[05:23] and  with  a  the  last  technology  in  the
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[05:25] market  it's  about  being  able  to  serve
[05:27] 
[05:27] problems  to  their  customers  so  finally
[05:30] 
[05:30] uh  the  product  that  you're  building  it
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[05:32] has  to  have  an  imp  a  real  impact  to  the
[05:34] 
[05:34] market  so  although  you  can  Define
[05:36] 
[05:36] yourself  as  a  sales  driving  company
[05:38] 
[05:38] probably  if  you're  building  a  disruptive
[05:40] 
[05:40] product  is  not  that  simple  I  mean  if  you
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[05:42] are  able  to  solve  that  problem  properly
[05:45] 
[05:45] then  you  will  be  able  to  build  a  a  a
[05:48] 
[05:48] sales  Urban  company  which  is  something
[05:50] 
[05:50] that  you  have  to  have  if  you  want  to
[05:51] 
[05:51] scale  properly  but  from  the  very
[05:53] 
[05:53] beginning  uh  when  I  understand  a  product
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[05:56] Centric  company  something  that  it's
[05:57] 
[05:57] you're  building  something  different
[05:58] 
[05:59] something  disrup  Ive  so  you  have  to
[06:01] 
[06:01] build  your  own  compet  competitive
[06:03] 
[06:03] advantage  on  it  so  that's  why  for  me  in
[06:07] 
[06:07] our  my  experience  which  is  quite  short
[06:09] 
[06:09] being  a  a  product  CEO  um  is  is  for  me
[06:13] 
[06:13] it's  quite  easy  to  have  this  broad
[06:15] 
[06:15] vision  of  the  company  because  it's  my
[06:16] 
[06:16] job  no  and  then  uh  for  me  what  it's
[06:19] 
[06:19] important  is  to  build  proper  uh
[06:21] 
[06:21] processes  uh  into  the  company  when  you
[06:24] 
[06:24] once  you  scale  then  it's  important  to  to
[06:26] 
[06:26] transmit  all  these  knowledge  and  these
[06:28] 
[06:28] best  practices  cultural  issues  uh  to  to
[06:31] 
[06:31] the  Future  product  manager  and  you  you
[06:33] 
[06:33] are  in  a  situation  that  a  lot  of  startup
[06:36] 
[06:36] are  I  guess  where  where  you  can't  hire  a
[06:38] 
[06:38] dedicated  product  person  like  you  can  at
[06:40] 
[06:40] Google  or  big  you  know  corporations  uh
[06:43] 
[06:43] and  you  have  to  take  take  care  of  both
[06:45] 
[06:45] the  you  know  the  leading  division  of  the
[06:47] 
[06:47] CEO  but  also  the  the  product  development
[06:50] 
[06:50] I  mean  h  how  how  do  you  manage  both  both
[06:52] 
[06:52] those  roles  and  and  what  do  you
[06:55] 
[06:55] prioritize  well  I  I  think  it  it  have  to
[06:58] 
[06:58] one  thing  is  be  able  to  to  to  to  deliver
[07:01] 
[07:01] to  the  market  our  vision  through  product
[07:04] 
[07:04] this  is  one  of  the  the  main  things  that
[07:05] 
[07:05] we  have  to  fight  with  and  this  implies
[07:08] 
[07:08] to  being  able  to  to  inform  and  and  your
[07:11] 
[07:11] team  what  are  those  goals  and  everything
[07:14] 
[07:14] we  are  dealing  into  the  product  is  is  to
[07:16] 
[07:16] serve  a  vision  which  in  our  case  is  to
[07:18] 
[07:18] automatize  administrative  processes  no
[07:20] 
[07:20] so  everything  we  are  doing  should  be  on
[07:22] 
[07:22] that  way  and  people  should  understand
[07:23] 
[07:23] that  and  then  um  the  other  thing  that  we
[07:26] 
[07:27] have  to  face  is  the  is  more  the
[07:29] 
[07:29] operation  part  which  is  quite
[07:31] 
[07:31] complicated  for  me  to  to  be  on  the  daily
[07:35] 
[07:35] monitoring  of  of  of  our  processes  so
[07:38] 
[07:38] what  we  have  done  in  kipu  is  to  empower
[07:40] 
[07:40] our  our  team  uh  so  for  example
[07:43] 
[07:43] implementing  a  scrum  methodologies  but
[07:46] 
[07:46] not  lead  by  me  directly  I'm  the  one  who
[07:48] 
[07:48] take  the  decision  but  in  the  operational
[07:51] 
[07:51] uh  terms  the  development  team  helps  with
[07:53] 
[07:53] it  so  uh  what  I've  done  progressively  is
[07:55] 
[07:55] to  empower  my  team  so  that  we  can  deal
[07:59] 
[07:59] with  operational  issues  which  is  helps
[08:02] 
[08:03] make  the  business  go  by  day  on  a  daily
[08:05] 
[08:05] basis  no  okay  yeah  I  think  that's  um
[08:08] 
[08:08] sorry  I  don't  know  if  we're  stilling  the
[08:09] 
[08:09] same  question  or  not  please  please  but
[08:11] 
[08:11] uh  what  you  just  said  and  you  mentioned
[08:12] 
[08:12] also  in  scrum  and  in  Gile  the  role  of  a
[08:14] 
[08:14] product  owner  a  mistake  I've  seen  uh
[08:17] 
[08:17] very  often  in  the  past  is  product
[08:19] 
[08:19] managers  become  managers  of  the  product
[08:21] 
[08:21] team  which  is  I  guess  not  what  they  are
[08:23] 
[08:23] intended  to  do  so  they  end  up  doing  the
[08:25] 
[08:25] project  management  of  the  team  so  they
[08:27] 
[08:27] end  up  uh  you  know  um
[08:29] 
[08:30] ordering  the  daily  the  daily  work  of  an
[08:33] 
[08:33] engineering  team  a  design  team  and  so  on
[08:35] 
[08:35] and  then  they  by  default  create  this
[08:38] 
[08:38] hierarchy  where  they  are  you  know  on  one
[08:40] 
[08:40] layer  and  then  the  executors  are  on  a
[08:42] 
[08:43] different  layer  and  I  think  this  breaks
[08:44] 
[08:45] the  communication  the  you  know  the  the
[08:46] 
[08:46] circle  of  feedback  and  um  I  don't  know
[08:50] 
[08:50] like  the  collaborative  environment  that
[08:51] 
[08:51] is  needed  to  to  ship  product  fast  as  as
[08:53] 
[08:53] any  company  or  startup  would  like  to  do
[08:56] 
[08:56] uh  in  general  so  I  think  agile  tried  to
[08:59] 
[08:59] rename  it  as  product  owner  I  think  to  to
[09:01] 
[09:01] remove  the  management  side  of  things  I
[09:03] 
[09:03] don't  know  that  that  fixes  anything  I
[09:05] 
[09:05] think  it's  more  an  organizational  issue
[09:07] 
[09:07] and  not  so  much  not  so  much  naming  but
[09:09] 
[09:09] product  manager  should  in  my  opinion
[09:11] 
[09:11] should  not  be  managing  uh  the  product
[09:13] 
[09:13] team  that's  executing  that  I've  heard  a
[09:15] 
[09:15] term  several  times  over  the  last  weeks
[09:17] 
[09:17] that  like  the  pro  managers  they  have
[09:19] 
[09:19] responsibility  but  not  Authority  uh  what
[09:22] 
[09:22] do  you  think  of  that  you  have  le  product
[09:24] 
[09:24] teams  that's  always  the  case  like  uh  I
[09:27] 
[09:27] think  always  may  be  in  a  privileged
[09:29] 
[09:29] position  you're  the  CEO  and  product
[09:30] 
[09:30] manager  which  is  probably  the  right
[09:32] 
[09:32] thing  to  do  when  start  up  in  the  initial
[09:34] 
[09:34] phases  cuz  honestly  you  don't  need  the
[09:36] 
[09:36] product  manager  on  day  one  or  even  when
[09:38] 
[09:38] the  team  is  20  it's  still  very  much  I
[09:41] 
[09:41] think  the  product  management  function
[09:42] 
[09:42] can  be  and  should  be  owned  by  the  the
[09:45] 
[09:45] entrepreneurs  um  it's  and  it's  kind  of
[09:49] 
[09:49] like  how  much  time  you  you're  willing  to
[09:51] 
[09:51] devote  to  actual  product  management
[09:53] 
[09:53] versus  fundraising  and  and  all  this
[09:55] 
[09:56] stuff  and  also  how  how  confident  you
[09:59] 
[09:59] with  the  product  management  but  it's
[10:00] 
[10:01] fine  um  back  to  to  your  question  right
[10:05] 
[10:05] uh  the  normal  situation  is  that  the
[10:07] 
[10:07] product  manager  is  someone  that  is  kind
[10:08] 
[10:08] of  inserted  into  the  team  usually  the
[10:10] 
[10:10] engineering  team  the  design  team  he
[10:12] 
[10:12] works  very  closely  with  marketing  with
[10:14] 
[10:14] sales  with  the  business  uh  units  as  well
[10:17] 
[10:17] and  with  customer  support  but  that
[10:19] 
[10:19] person  doesn't  manage  any  of  those  uh  uh
[10:22] 
[10:22] groups  and  um  what  we  accomplish  we
[10:26] 
[10:26] accomplish  through  partnership  for
[10:29] 
[10:29] fluence  through  for  all  the  soft  skills
[10:32] 
[10:32] that  are  very  important  to  product
[10:33] 
[10:33] managers  so  through  communicating  a
[10:35] 
[10:35] vision  through  back  and  forth
[10:37] 
[10:37] discussions  through  Gathering  Data
[10:40] 
[10:40] Business  data  and  uh  making  data
[10:43] 
[10:43] decision  uh  data  driven  decisions
[10:46] 
[10:46] through  user  research  through  all  these
[10:47] 
[10:48] tools  we  managed  to  get  everyone  into  a
[10:50] 
[10:50] good  place  which  is  not  necessarily  our
[10:52] 
[10:52] vision  like  sometimes  product  managers
[10:55] 
[10:55] lead  a  product  where  the  vision  comes
[10:57] 
[10:57] from  someone  else  it's  better  If  the
[10:59] 
[10:59] product  manager  is  also  the  visioner  but
[11:01] 
[11:01] it's  not  always  the  case  um  I  think  the
[11:04] 
[11:04] discussion  we  had  just  before  sales
[11:06] 
[11:06] driven  product  driven  I've  seen
[11:08] 
[11:09] companies  where  it's  design  driven  it's
[11:11] 
[11:11] more  modern  uh  it's  very  typical  and  all
[11:15] 
[11:15] of  these  things  are  good  if  you  but  if
[11:17] 
[11:17] you  overdo  them  if  you  over  emphasize
[11:19] 
[11:19] the  business  side  overemphasize  the
[11:21] 
[11:21] engineering  side  you  tend  to  get
[11:23] 
[11:23] distracted  for  the  main  thing  and  the
[11:24] 
[11:24] main  thing  is  the  value  you  deliver  to
[11:27] 
[11:27] users  the  value  capture  from  the  market
[11:31] 
[11:31] and  the  value  you  give  to  the  employees
[11:32] 
[11:32] at  the  end  of  the  day  because  the
[11:33] 
[11:33] employees  also  need  to  really  benefit
[11:35] 
[11:35] from  working  and  I  think  the  product
[11:38] 
[11:38] manager  is  in  a  unique  position  to
[11:41] 
[11:41] combine  these  three  and  kind  of  find
[11:43] 
[11:44] this  win-win  win  solution  where  you
[11:46] 
[11:46] deliver  value  capture  value  and  do  all
[11:48] 
[11:48] these  things  for  the  C  sometimes  hard
[11:50] 
[11:50] because  you're  very  much  Pro  pressed  to
[11:53] 
[11:53] deliver  numbers  to  make  money  to  to
[11:56] 
[11:56] raise  funds  you  sometimes  CEOs  of  and
[11:59] 
[11:59] being  pushed  to  the  business  side  much
[12:01] 
[12:01] more  right  and  like  in  your  opinion  just
[12:04] 
[12:04] to  to  answer  this  do  you  is  there  like  a
[12:06] 
[12:06] fixed  answer  for  when  a  startup  should
[12:08] 
[12:08] hire  a  product
[12:10] 
[12:10] manager  I  think  uh  once  you  start  seeing
[12:13] 
[12:13] a  lot  of
[12:15] 
[12:15] um  you  spend  a  lot  of  time  in
[12:17] 
[12:17] discussions  about  what  engineering  needs
[12:20] 
[12:20] to  do  and  and  you  start  seeing  friction
[12:22] 
[12:22] between  the  business  size  and  the  which
[12:24] 
[12:24] you  as  a  Founder  don't  have  enough
[12:27] 
[12:27] Cycles  to  control  that's  you  ually  a
[12:29] 
[12:29] sign  that  you  need  someone  or  if
[12:31] 
[12:31] engineering  comes  to  you  and  say  we  just
[12:33] 
[12:33] don't  know  what  to  do  like  we  talk  with
[12:34] 
[12:34] you  sporadically  give  us  guidance  but  we
[12:37] 
[12:37] really  need  someone  to  work  with  us  day
[12:39] 
[12:39] to  day  that's  a  time  to  to  actually  hire
[12:42] 
[12:42] a  product  manager  and  not  necessarily  A
[12:43] 
[12:43] VP  of  product  someone  with  10  years
[12:45] 
[12:45] experience  sometimes  midlevel  PM  or  even
[12:49] 
[12:49] a  junior  can  do  tremendous  thing  for  a
[12:51] 
[12:51] small  company  I  also  think  you  can
[12:53] 
[12:53] promote  from  within  um  I  I  was
[12:56] 
[12:56] reflecting  on  how  we're  doing  it  now  at
[12:57] 
[12:57] factorial  so  we  very  small  team  we're
[12:59] 
[12:59] are  seven  people  right  now  and  uh  I
[13:02] 
[13:02] think  we  have  three  people  doing  a
[13:03] 
[13:03] product  role  right  right  and  I  was
[13:05] 
[13:05] thinking  about  you  know  what  areas  of
[13:07] 
[13:07] product  um  I  think  influence  the  company
[13:10] 
[13:10] and  there  is  a  business  side  of  things  I
[13:12] 
[13:12] think  there's  a  technology  side  of
[13:13] 
[13:13] things  and  there  is  a  design  or  ux  side
[13:15] 
[13:15] of  things  right  so  if  you  combine  the
[13:16] 
[13:16] three  of  them  then  the  company
[13:18] 
[13:18] flourishes  and  actually  the  CTO  uh  would
[13:21] 
[13:21] be  somehow  product  manager  and  he's
[13:23] 
[13:23] obviously  engineering  oriented  then  our
[13:27] 
[13:27] designer  who  is  official  title  is
[13:29] 
[13:29] product  designer  so  he's  leading  the  ux
[13:32] 
[13:32] and  the  users  perspective  and  then
[13:34] 
[13:34] myself  as  a  CEO  as  well  kind  of
[13:36] 
[13:36] influence  the  product  with  the  business
[13:38] 
[13:38] perspective  in  mind  so  I  think  in  our
[13:40] 
[13:40] case  we  have  like  one  product  manager
[13:41] 
[13:41] with  three  heads  so  the  three  of  us  meet
[13:43] 
[13:43] often  and  we  discuss  together  and  then
[13:46] 
[13:46] maybe  the  product  designer  theser
[13:48] 
[13:48] actually  executes  as  product  manager  and
[13:51] 
[13:51] you  know  like  works  on  specs  and  then
[13:53] 
[13:53] negotiates  with  the  rest  of  the  team  and
[13:54] 
[13:54] makes  sure  that  what  we're  doing  is  the
[13:55] 
[13:55] right  thing  for  the  business  and  so  on
[13:57] 
[13:57] but  he  consults  often  on  me  on  PO  for
[13:59] 
[13:59] instance  for  the  two  areas  where  he's
[14:02] 
[14:02] not  so  much  experienced  yet  and  it  makes
[14:05] 
[14:05] sense  I  mean  and  that's  always  you  know
[14:07] 
[14:07] surprised  me  with  the  product  manager
[14:08] 
[14:08] role  that  you  have  to  combine  all  this
[14:10] 
[14:10] knowledge  uh  into  one  position  you  know
[14:12] 
[14:12] with  three  different  as  you  say  like  you
[14:14] 
[14:14] focus  on  what  you  know  best  you  focus  on
[14:16] 
[14:16] business  and  your  CTO  focus  on  the
[14:18] 
[14:18] technical  stuff  but  I  mean  uh  if  you're
[14:21] 
[14:21] setting  out  to  become  a  product  manager
[14:23] 
[14:23] I  mean  what  kind  of  skills  should  you
[14:25] 
[14:25] inherit  what  is  your  opinion  J  well  so
[14:29] 
[14:29] think  these  three  areas  and  and  I've
[14:30] 
[14:30] seen  all  of  them  well  I  I  think  you
[14:33] 
[14:33] should  know  enough  about  these  three
[14:35] 
[14:35] areas  and  for  instance  I  I've  managed
[14:36] 
[14:36] product  managers  and  I  did  product
[14:38] 
[14:38] management  in  the  past  and  I  always
[14:39] 
[14:39] lacked  ux  I  I  don't  have  any  training  or
[14:43] 
[14:43] any  knowledge  around  user  experience  and
[14:44] 
[14:44] I  always  felt  you  know  like  I  couldn't
[14:46] 
[14:46] deliver  a  good  product  because  I  I
[14:48] 
[14:48] likeed  it  so  I  had  to  collaborate  with  a
[14:50] 
[14:50] designer  and  it  it  wasn't  the  same  um  so
[14:52] 
[14:53] I  think  you  know  product  managers  often
[14:54] 
[14:54] come  from  either  NBAs  or  engineering
[14:57] 
[14:57] backgrounds  or  design  backgrounds  at
[14:59] 
[14:59] least  the  ones  I  met  either  started  from
[15:02] 
[15:02] from  one  of  the  of  those  three  sources  I
[15:04] 
[15:04] don't  know  which  one  is  the  best  I  think
[15:06] 
[15:06] that's  going  to  be  a  long  debate  but
[15:08] 
[15:08] I've  seen  good  good  in  neither  of  them
[15:11] 
[15:11] um  when  you  at  least  have  two  of  them
[15:13] 
[15:13] very  strong  in  the  DNA  of  a  person  then
[15:15] 
[15:15] I  think  you're  on  to  something  what  what
[15:17] 
[15:17] do  you  think  I  mean  You'  have  been
[15:18] 
[15:18] dedicated  to  product  for  a  long  time
[15:20] 
[15:20] yeah  and  I've  been  interviewing  a  lot  of
[15:21] 
[15:22] product  managers  and  product  manages  so
[15:24] 
[15:24] uh  I  think  it's  beyond  there's  two  level
[15:29] 
[15:29] this  the  education  like  where  this
[15:31] 
[15:31] person  comes  from  what  their  education
[15:32] 
[15:32] is  where  companies  like  Microsoft  uh
[15:36] 
[15:36] Google  I  think  also  Facebook  strongly
[15:39] 
[15:39] prefer  engineering  like  if  if  you  don't
[15:41] 
[15:41] have  this  computer  science  uh  degree  you
[15:43] 
[15:43] will  not  get  hired  probably  or  it's
[15:45] 
[15:45] extremely  hard  to  get
[15:47] 
[15:47] hired  and  that's  but  what  they  want  is
[15:50] 
[15:50] not  pure  Engineers  they  want  Engineers
[15:51] 
[15:52] that  are  very  user  Centric  with  empathy
[15:54] 
[15:54] for  the  customers  and  have  business  SMS
[15:58] 
[15:58] and  understand  little  bit  of
[16:00] 
[16:00] design  and  can  also  work  with  people  and
[16:03] 
[16:03] have  good  communication  skills  and  have
[16:04] 
[16:04] all  this  it's  like  a  really  hard  job  to
[16:07] 
[16:07] feel  uh  in  Google  we  interviewed  a  lot  a
[16:10] 
[16:10] lot  of  people  before  we  made  a  single
[16:11] 
[16:11] hire  it's  it's  a  very  tough  job  to  to
[16:13] 
[16:13] Really  find  someone  so  uh  back  to  your
[16:16] 
[16:16] point  if  you  find  someone  in  your  team
[16:18] 
[16:18] that  has  this  naturally  and  you  can  see
[16:20] 
[16:20] the  tendency  they're  very  interested  in
[16:21] 
[16:21] the  customers  Etc  that's  great  you  can
[16:24] 
[16:24] let  them  grow  into  the  role  but
[16:27] 
[16:27] sometimes  you  need  to  hire  some  from
[16:28] 
[16:28] from  from  the  outside  someone  who  really
[16:30] 
[16:30] is  like  this  and  you  need  to  interview  a
[16:32] 
[16:32] lot  of  people  it's  it's  not  uh  very  easy
[16:35] 
[16:35] and  credentials  like  experiences  product
[16:37] 
[16:37] manager  don't  necessarily  mean  much  I'm
[16:40] 
[16:40] a  bit  hesitant  about  the  CTO  being  the
[16:42] 
[16:42] product  manager  to  be  honest  uh  because
[16:44] 
[16:44] the  CTO  is  really  needs  to  spend  most  of
[16:48] 
[16:48] the  Cycles  about  how  to  launch  the
[16:50] 
[16:50] product  right  how  to  do  the  software  to
[16:53] 
[16:53] design  it  to  make  sure  quality  is  there
[16:56] 
[16:56] while  the  product  manager  needs  to  think
[16:58] 
[16:58] how  to  do  the  right  product  and  it's
[17:00] 
[17:00] sometimes  conflicts  sometimes  you  does
[17:03] 
[17:03] push  back  and  then  the  CTO  like  the
[17:06] 
[17:06] person  wearing  this  two  ads  needs  to  be
[17:08] 
[17:08] really  a  special  person  to  be  able  to
[17:10] 
[17:10] completely  be  what  do  you  think  what  do
[17:12] 
[17:12] you  think  about  this  I  I  totally  agree  I
[17:15] 
[17:15] think  it's  in  this  case  we're  talking
[17:17] 
[17:17] about  the  founder  so  there  has  to  be
[17:19] 
[17:19] very  special  person  by  definition  right
[17:22] 
[17:22] so  needs  to  care  about  business  product
[17:24] 
[17:24] people  team  hiring  everything  special
[17:27] 
[17:27] yeah  um  but  I  I  I  agree  I  have  a
[17:29] 
[17:29] question  for  you  both  who  should  a
[17:32] 
[17:32] product  manager  report  to  in  a  very
[17:34] 
[17:34] small
[17:35] 
[17:35] startup  in  a  very  small  start  I  think
[17:38] 
[17:38] one  of  the  founders  like  either  the  CTO
[17:40] 
[17:40] or  the  CEO  so  you  should  report  to  the
[17:42] 
[17:42] CTO  that's  what  I  was  going  for  oh  but
[17:45] 
[17:45] not  to  the  head  of  business  CU  that's
[17:47] 
[17:47] usually  not  a  good  mix  if  yeah  for  me
[17:50] 
[17:50] for  me  the  CEO  especially  in  our  case  as
[17:53] 
[17:53] a  as  a  software  company  then  it  it's
[17:57] 
[17:57] enough  important  to  have  this  input  from
[17:58] 
[17:58] from  from  direct  to  our  my  product
[18:01] 
[18:01] manager  so  the  thing  is  that  your
[18:03] 
[18:03] definition  about  the  product  manager  it
[18:05] 
[18:05] was  a  unicorn  finally  because  it's  quite
[18:07] 
[18:07] complicated  to  find  these  kind  of
[18:08] 
[18:08] profiles  no  um  but  the  thing  is  for
[18:11] 
[18:11] example  in  our  case  I  uh  I  do  agree  that
[18:14] 
[18:14] I  would  like  to  to  have  a  a  product
[18:16] 
[18:16] manager  who  has  uh  a  computer  science
[18:19] 
[18:19] background  why  basically  because  I  think
[18:22] 
[18:22] it's  it's  in  my  case  it's  my  lack  I  mean
[18:24] 
[18:24] I'm  not  an  engineer  so  I've  got  this
[18:26] 
[18:27] lack  so  I  would  like  to  strength  uh  that
[18:29] 
[18:29] part  with  someone  who  has  this  skill  but
[18:32] 
[18:32] this  is  uh  in  my  case  is  is  is  it's  it's
[18:35] 
[18:35] what  I'm  I  would  like  to  look  for  no  um
[18:38] 
[18:38] but  on  the  other  way  around  um  one  of
[18:40] 
[18:40] the  things  that  we  have  done  here  in
[18:41] 
[18:42] kipo  is  basically  to  to  empower  each
[18:44] 
[18:44] person  on  that  team  so  the  thing  is  that
[18:46] 
[18:46] I  need  someone  who  leads  technology
[18:49] 
[18:49] which  is  in  that  case  the  CTO  I  need
[18:51] 
[18:51] someone  who  can  help  uh  with  the
[18:54] 
[18:54] customers  and  understanding  uh  and  this
[18:57] 
[18:57] is  people  that  is  on  support  team  so  and
[19:00] 
[19:00] and  and  and  my  goal  was  always  to  to  set
[19:03] 
[19:03] up  appropriate  communication  flows  so
[19:05] 
[19:05] that  everyone  is  aware  of  what's  going
[19:07] 
[19:07] on  and  and  finally  I'm  the  one  who  who
[19:10] 
[19:10] who  delivers  all  this  information  to  to
[19:12] 
[19:12] the  whole  team  um  somehow  it  have
[19:15] 
[19:15] relation  to  to  promote  someone  from
[19:17] 
[19:17] someone  from  within  because  basically
[19:18] 
[19:18] what  we  are  doing  is  to  empower  uh  each
[19:20] 
[19:20] one  of  the  team  and  and  and  and  I'm  the
[19:23] 
[19:23] one  who  finally  gets  that  information
[19:25] 
[19:25] and  translates  it  into  the  people  so  in
[19:27] 
[19:27] our  case  it  it  somehow  we  are  promoting
[19:31] 
[19:31] uh  my  my  my  team  into  this  product
[19:34] 
[19:34] manager  role  although  none  of  them  are
[19:36] 
[19:36] product  manager  by  definition  but  that's
[19:39] 
[19:39] why  for  example  in  in  probably  our  our
[19:41] 
[19:41] our  and  for  example  our  product  designer
[19:43] 
[19:43] it's  the  situation  is  similar  to  to  what
[19:45] 
[19:45] Jordy  has  in  factorial  uh  also  the  one
[19:48] 
[19:48] who  leads  with  design  um  and  and  I  was
[19:51] 
[19:51] looking  for  someone  who  who  who  can't
[19:53] 
[19:53] take  this  challenge  if  not  it  makes  no
[19:55] 
[19:55] sense  for  me  in  a  in  a  small  startup
[19:57] 
[19:57] although  we  are  just  14  people
[19:59] 
[19:59] I  I  cannot  I  cannot  expect  that  I  lead
[20:02] 
[20:02] with  everything  what's  going  on  into
[20:04] 
[20:04] into  the  company  have  to  empower  them
[20:06] 
[20:06] but  by  definition  for  me  I  think  that
[20:08] 
[20:08] the  product  manager  should  have
[20:10] 
[20:10] computers  uh  uh  software  skills  I
[20:14] 
[20:14] engineering  skills  basically  because
[20:16] 
[20:16] it's  uh  one  of  the  main  competitive
[20:18] 
[20:18] Advantage  I  would  have  in  the  in  the
[20:20] 
[20:20] future  so  that's  why  I  would  like  to  to
[20:22] 
[20:22] strength  this  this
[20:24] 
[20:24] part  do  you  think  he  needs  to  be  able  to
[20:26] 
[20:26] program  or  he  or  she  or  I  mean  for  me  he
[20:30] 
[20:30] who  should  be  able  to  uh  this  product  M
[20:32] 
[20:32] should  be  able  to  do  that  one  thing  is
[20:34] 
[20:34] to  to  have  program  skills  the  other
[20:37] 
[20:37] thing  is  is  to  implement  it  because  I
[20:39] 
[20:39] think  the  development  team  is  the  one
[20:40] 
[20:40] who  finally  will  Implement  whatever  it
[20:42] 
[20:42] is  but  he  would  be  able  to  to  to  create
[20:45] 
[20:45] at  least  a  prototype  uh  and  and  and  and
[20:48] 
[20:48] and  and  spend  some  time  with  risky
[20:50] 
[20:50] Technologies  and  and  and  for  me  the  for
[20:54] 
[20:54] me  what  I'm  looking  for  is  someone  who
[20:55] 
[20:55] is  able  to  spend  that  time  on  on  on  on
[20:58] 
[20:58] trying  to  develop  things  that  that  are
[20:59] 
[21:00] not  that  obvious  to  develop  so  that
[21:02] 
[21:02] before  it  turns  out  to  be  a  task  into  an
[21:05] 
[21:05] Sprint  with  their  specs  and  everything
[21:08] 
[21:08] that  guy  should  be  able  to  to  prototype
[21:10] 
[21:10] it  to  try  it  out  see  if  it  makes  sense
[21:12] 
[21:12] and  then  when  it's  validated  then  okay
[21:14] 
[21:14] he  then  is  the  CTO  part  no  where  he  has
[21:17] 
[21:17] to  to  to  to  to  to  to  deliver  this  this
[21:21] 
[21:21] this  final  product  with  all  the  specs
[21:23] 
[21:23] necessary  Etc  so  uh  on  the  same  token
[21:26] 
[21:27] maybe  this  person  needs  to  be  able  to
[21:28] 
[21:28] design  as  well  or  maybe  he  needs  to  he
[21:30] 
[21:30] or  she  needs  to  do  spreadsheets  or
[21:32] 
[21:32] business  plans  yeah  or  do  sales  calls
[21:35] 
[21:35] run  analytics  talk  to  customers  I  agree
[21:39] 
[21:39] that's  that's  a  problem  like  I  think  uh
[21:42] 
[21:42] I've  always  seen  product  managers  go  in
[21:44] 
[21:44] one  of  these  areas  more  so  maybe  some
[21:46] 
[21:46] some  people  go  in  back  into  the  cave  and
[21:48] 
[21:48] then  they  do  a  prototype  but  then  they
[21:50] 
[21:50] didn't  do  enough  market  research  they
[21:51] 
[21:51] didn't  talk  enough  to  customers  they
[21:53] 
[21:53] didn't  make  it  usable  so  it's  that's  one
[21:57] 
[21:57] point  but  if  you  forget  the  for  then
[21:59] 
[21:59] you're  kind  of  yeah  incomplete  it's  the
[22:01] 
[22:01] challenge  I  think  it  varies  if  if  what
[22:04] 
[22:04] you're  developing  is  an  API  and  you're
[22:06] 
[22:06] customers  or  developers  having  a  PM  that
[22:09] 
[22:09] can  program  is  a  huge  advantage  that's
[22:12] 
[22:12] absolutely  because  that  makes  it  so  much
[22:13] 
[22:13] easier  for  the  person  to  to  identify
[22:16] 
[22:16] with  the  users  if  what  you  need  is
[22:18] 
[22:18] someone  to  talk  intelligently  with  the
[22:20] 
[22:20] engineering  team  about  technical  terms
[22:23] 
[22:23] then  you  need  someone  with  a  technical
[22:25] 
[22:25] background  or  technical  aptitude  that
[22:26] 
[22:26] can  read  that  can  learn  doesn't
[22:29] 
[22:29] necessarily  need  to  be  able  to  code  or
[22:31] 
[22:31] understand  all  the  intricacies  of  the
[22:33] 
[22:33] coding  definitely  architecture  is  good
[22:36] 
[22:36] looking  at  like  a  box  diagram  of  your
[22:38] 
[22:38] system  and  not  fainting  is  is  a  good
[22:41] 
[22:41] thing  right  uh  but  that  person  needs  to
[22:43] 
[22:43] be  able  to  talk  to  sales  also  and  talk
[22:45] 
[22:45] to  marketing  and  think  about  retention
[22:47] 
[22:47] do  all  these  other  things  so  I  wouldn't
[22:50] 
[22:50] look  just  for  someone  who  is  a  coder
[22:52] 
[22:52] that's  my  message  yeah  it  seems  to  me
[22:54] 
[22:54] that  the  soft  skills  are  are  super  super
[22:56] 
[22:56] important  especially  dealing  with  uh  you
[22:58] 
[22:58] know  development  team  with  a  lot  of
[22:59] 
[22:59] different  personalities  uh  that  that's
[23:02] 
[23:02] you  know  a  topic  by  itself  I  mean  how  to
[23:04] 
[23:04] deal  with  with  an  engineering  team  or  a
[23:07] 
[23:07] design  team  or  a  business  team  I  mean
[23:09] 
[23:09] you're  dealing  with  so  many  different
[23:11] 
[23:11] personalities  how  do  you  do  it  I  mean  J
[23:14] 
[23:14] do  you  have  been  you  know  dealing  with
[23:16] 
[23:16] the  product  and  have  been  talking  with
[23:17] 
[23:17] different  departments  you've  been  in
[23:18] 
[23:18] sales  talking  with  customers  uh
[23:20] 
[23:20] developing  I  mean  how  do  you  do
[23:22] 
[23:22] this  well  the  soft  skills  it's  I  don't
[23:26] 
[23:26] know  how  to  describe  where  they  come
[23:27] 
[23:27] from  but  yeah  um  I  think  that's  one  of
[23:30] 
[23:30] the  things  you  need  to  look  for  this
[23:32] 
[23:32] role  the  first  like  if  you  have  somebody
[23:35] 
[23:35] who's  a  genius  but  they  cannot  defend
[23:37] 
[23:37] their  ideas  in  front  of  customers  or
[23:38] 
[23:38] they  cannot  convince  a  stubborn  engineer
[23:41] 
[23:41] that  this  is  really  a  priority  and  this
[23:43] 
[23:43] is  really  what  they  should  be  focusing
[23:45] 
[23:45] uh  focusing  on  before  say  a  refactor  or
[23:48] 
[23:48] a  technology  change  or  something  like
[23:49] 
[23:49] that  um  or  he  not  able  to  deal  with  an
[23:52] 
[23:52] angry  customer  that  found  an  issue  with
[23:54] 
[23:54] a  product  and  you  need  to  figure  out
[23:55] 
[23:55] what  the  issue  is  by  asking  the  right
[23:57] 
[23:57] questions  and  so  on  and  then  it's  you
[23:59] 
[23:59] know  all  the  talent  behind  that  is  is
[24:00] 
[24:00] useless  so  I  just  think  like  the  I  don't
[24:05] 
[24:05] really  know  how  to  answer  your  question
[24:06] 
[24:06] but  the  first  thing  you  should  look  for
[24:09] 
[24:09] is  is  this  ability  to  negotiate  to
[24:11] 
[24:11] listen  to  carefully  build  a  relationship
[24:13] 
[24:14] with  everybody  with  you  know  with  super
[24:16] 
[24:16] hardcore  nerdy  developers  and  with  very
[24:19] 
[24:19] pissed  uh  strong  Executives  or  customers
[24:23] 
[24:23] so  like  you  know  and  all  at  the  same
[24:25] 
[24:25] level  um  about  for  me  this  is  by
[24:28] 
[24:28] definition  what  a  should  a  good  manager
[24:30] 
[24:30] should  be  I  mean  they  have  to  and
[24:32] 
[24:32] there's  different  roles  because  someone
[24:33] 
[24:34] who  is  ahead  of  sales  their  roles  are
[24:35] 
[24:35] totally  different  from  a  CTO  or  a
[24:37] 
[24:37] product  manager  but  by  definition  as  a
[24:40] 
[24:40] manager  uh  she  should  be  able  to  to
[24:43] 
[24:43] negotiate  to  to  communicate  to  have  an
[24:45] 
[24:45] analytical  View  and  and  there  are  some
[24:48] 
[24:48] skills  that  for  me  are  the  same  in  each
[24:51] 
[24:51] management  position  and  then  okay  we  can
[24:53] 
[24:53] go  into  detail  of  of  a  given  position
[24:56] 
[24:56] what  are  the  strength  that  they  should
[24:58] 
[24:58] be  there  something  this  kind  of  soft
[24:59] 
[25:00] skill  for  me  by  definition  every  manager
[25:02] 
[25:02] should  should  have  it  especially  and
[25:04] 
[25:04] especially  in  a  startup  where
[25:05] 
[25:05] communication  is  much  more  important
[25:07] 
[25:07] cultural  field  it's  important  uh  and
[25:10] 
[25:10] this  kind  of  stuff  uh  for  me  makes  a
[25:13] 
[25:13] must  half  uh  and  then  it  comes  the
[25:16] 
[25:16] position  no  but  but  this  kind  of  skills
[25:18] 
[25:18] it's  it's  T  exactly  and  and  I  mean
[25:21] 
[25:21] you've  been  working  as  you  said  uh  with
[25:23] 
[25:23] different  products  such  as  Gmail  and
[25:25] 
[25:25] YouTube  as  we  know  I  mean  uh  for  for  you
[25:29] 
[25:29] uh  I  mean  this  is  this  is  experience
[25:30] 
[25:30] that  not  many  product  managers  has  I
[25:33] 
[25:33] mean  just  let's  face  it
[25:35] 
[25:35] uh  from  from  your  experience  can  you
[25:38] 
[25:38] give  us  some  insight  in  uh  I  mean  what
[25:40] 
[25:40] was  your  biggest  challenges  you  know  uh
[25:42] 
[25:42] running  these  teams  uh  the  same
[25:45] 
[25:45] challenges  these  guys  are  facing
[25:46] 
[25:46] actually  it's  the  people  challenges  that
[25:48] 
[25:48] are  usually  that's  actually  one  of  my
[25:51] 
[25:51] biggest  uh  favorite  question  when  I
[25:52] 
[25:53] interview  PM  it's  like  what's  the
[25:54] 
[25:54] biggest  challenges  you  fac  and  they
[25:56] 
[25:56] usually  name  two  classes  of  challenges
[25:58] 
[25:58] one  is  understanding  the  customers  and
[26:01] 
[26:01] coming  up  with  the  right  product  the
[26:02] 
[26:02] right  ideas  to  help  these  people  which
[26:05] 
[26:05] is  an  objective  Challenge  and  the  other
[26:08] 
[26:08] one  is  internally  getting  everyone  on
[26:10] 
[26:10] the  same  page  uh  convincing  or  being
[26:13] 
[26:13] convinced  and  moving  everyone  pulling  in
[26:16] 
[26:16] the  same  direction  and  in  Google  it's
[26:19] 
[26:19] it's  a  very  good  company  it's  full  of
[26:21] 
[26:21] super  smart  people  much  smarter  than  me
[26:23] 
[26:23] and  very  positive  very  helpful  but  the
[26:26] 
[26:26] same  kind  of  vectors  exist  the
[26:28] 
[26:28] engineering  is  pulling  in  this  direction
[26:30] 
[26:30] business  is  pulling  in  that  direction
[26:31] 
[26:31] marketing  would  like  these  features  to
[26:33] 
[26:33] be  added  uh  and  plus  we  have  a  lot  more
[26:37] 
[26:37] exposure  even  if  we  change  a  few  pixels
[26:40] 
[26:40] someone  will  hate  it  someone  will  shade
[26:42] 
[26:42] of  blue
[26:44] 
[26:44] right  uh  so  uh  so  we  need  to  be  much  a
[26:47] 
[26:47] bit  more  cautious  and  test  things  a  bit
[26:49] 
[26:49] uh
[26:50] 
[26:50] more  just  to  go  back  to  your  question
[26:53] 
[26:53] about  soft  skills  super  important  uh
[26:56] 
[26:56] much  more  important  than  a  lot  of  of
[26:58] 
[26:58] other  things  that  people  think  um  and  I
[27:01] 
[27:01] really  like  the  answer  I  heard  here
[27:03] 
[27:03] which  is  about  relationships  that's  the
[27:05] 
[27:05] best  way  to  convince  people  to  get  into
[27:07] 
[27:07] a  good  relationship  with  them  a
[27:09] 
[27:09] partnership  where  basically  you
[27:12] 
[27:12] understand  what  they're  about  what  they
[27:13] 
[27:13] how  to  achieve  what  they're  optimizing
[27:15] 
[27:15] for  and  you  can  tell  them  here's  I'm
[27:18] 
[27:18] going  to  help  you  get  to  that  point  in
[27:19] 
[27:19] the  end  it's  not  about  uh  being  an
[27:22] 
[27:22] engineer  it's  about  being  an  a  manager
[27:24] 
[27:25] know  which  is  the  most  important  thing
[27:26] 
[27:26] and  how  do  you  evaluate  this
[27:28] 
[27:28] these  skills  or  how  you  filter
[27:31] 
[27:31] candidates  you  know  which  is  the  the
[27:33] 
[27:33] process  that's  first  before  I  answer
[27:35] 
[27:35] this  uh  just  to  make  Engineers  feel  a
[27:38] 
[27:38] the  engineers  that  are  watching  this
[27:39] 
[27:39] feel  a  little  bit  work  better  some  of
[27:42] 
[27:42] the  best  product  ideas  I  ever  delivered
[27:44] 
[27:44] came  from  engineering  well  we  you're
[27:46] 
[27:46] engineer  I'm  an  engineer  so  like  they're
[27:48] 
[27:48] represented  here're  not  not  about
[27:50] 
[27:50] nothing  no  I'm
[27:53] 
[27:53] not  know  but  but  not  from  this  engineer
[27:56] 
[27:56] like  I  put  together  a  spec  and  I  worked
[27:58] 
[27:58] with  the  designer  and  we  came  up  and
[28:00] 
[28:00] then  the  engineer  that  needed  to
[28:01] 
[28:01] implement  this  came  to  me  and  said
[28:03] 
[28:03] actually  I  think  there's  a  better  way  to
[28:04] 
[28:04] do  this  and  the  natural  reaction  is  like
[28:08] 
[28:08] oh  I'm  the  product  manager  who  are  you
[28:09] 
[28:09] to  tell  me  actually  I'm  the  expert  but
[28:12] 
[28:12] actually  if  you  listen  you  find  the
[28:14] 
[28:14] engineers  have  great  ideas  and  sales
[28:15] 
[28:16] people  have  great  ideas  everyone  can
[28:17] 
[28:17] come  up  with  a  great  idea  and  you  need
[28:19] 
[28:19] to  be  actually  more  humble  to  accept
[28:22] 
[28:22] those  um  the  trick  for  interviewing
[28:25] 
[28:25] people  that  I  can  give  is  try  to  give
[28:28] 
[28:28] them  in  the  interview  a  product
[28:31] 
[28:31] management  design  uh  question  so  for
[28:34] 
[28:34] example  find  a  market  Niche  like  people
[28:37] 
[28:37] over  65  and  older  and  five  find  a
[28:40] 
[28:40] product  and  say  design  toaster  for
[28:42] 
[28:42] elderly  people  or  design  toaster  for
[28:44] 
[28:44] blind  people  or  any  of  these  where  you
[28:47] 
[28:47] force  them  a  little  bit
[28:49] 
[28:49] into  thinking  about  the  user  think  about
[28:52] 
[28:52] product  thinking  about  how  they  will
[28:54] 
[28:54] deliver  this  within  15  minutes  you  can
[28:56] 
[28:56] learn  a  lot  about  the  create  ity  their
[28:59] 
[28:59] customer  empathy  and  the  two  things  to
[29:02] 
[29:02] look  for  are  Engineers  like  hardore
[29:05] 
[29:05] Engineers  will  jump  to  the  bit  level  and
[29:07] 
[29:08] they  say  oh  I  can  do  this  and  then  I'll
[29:10] 
[29:10] install  this  system  and  this  uh  and  the
[29:13] 
[29:13] communication  will  go  with  this  protocol
[29:15] 
[29:15] great  not  P  or  if  you  see  a  MBA  type  uh
[29:20] 
[29:20] sorry  NBA  this  this  great  product
[29:23] 
[29:23] managers  that  MBA  it  comes  that  oh  this
[29:26] 
[29:26] is  how  we  penetrate  the  market  and  this
[29:28] 
[29:28] is  a  competitive  Advantage  Etc  it's  all
[29:31] 
[29:31] high  level  and  you  never  get  any  product
[29:32] 
[29:32] details  from  them  also  not  good  I  mean
[29:36] 
[29:37] uh  we're  talking  about  a  lot  a  lot  about
[29:38] 
[29:39] uh  analyzing  the  market  talking  with
[29:40] 
[29:41] customers  and  this  is  a  big  job  in  in  a
[29:43] 
[29:43] product  manager  role  to  understand  you
[29:44] 
[29:44] know  your  customers  and  your  clients  uh
[29:46] 
[29:46] but  sometimes  especially  in  in  in  the
[29:48] 
[29:48] beginning  uh  of  of  a  company  uh  you
[29:51] 
[29:51] don't  know  you  know  the  full  Market  you
[29:52] 
[29:53] don't  know  the  potential  uh  and  I'm  just
[29:55] 
[29:55] bit  curious  and  I  think  other  people  are
[29:56] 
[29:56] here  as  well  I  mean  uh  your  guys  at  FAL
[30:00] 
[30:00] you're  you're  quite  fresh  uh  I  mean  6
[30:03] 
[30:04] months  plus  and  and  how  many  times  do
[30:07] 
[30:07] you  make  product  decisions  based  on  your
[30:09] 
[30:09] gut  and  how  many  times  do  you  do  it
[30:12] 
[30:12] based  on
[30:14] 
[30:14] analytics  honestly
[30:16] 
[30:16] or  who's  listening  now  um  I  mean  I  think
[30:21] 
[30:21] we  need  to  so  I  I  don't  think  we  have  a
[30:24] 
[30:24] lot  of  uh  gut  decisions  and  if  we  do  the
[30:28] 
[30:28] first  thing  we  do  is  we  run  out  of  the
[30:30] 
[30:30] office  and  go  talk  to  a  handful  of
[30:32] 
[30:32] customers  at  least  and  try  to  be  very
[30:34] 
[30:34] objective  and  very  honest  with  ourselves
[30:36] 
[30:36] like  never  tell  only  ask  and  make  sure
[30:39] 
[30:39] their  answers  are  aligned  with  what  we
[30:41] 
[30:41] thought  or  what  we  guessed  um  being  very
[30:44] 
[30:44] honest  at  our  stage  it's  very  hard  to
[30:46] 
[30:46] run  an  a  metrics  driven  or  analytics
[30:49] 
[30:50] driven  business  because  the  the  the  base
[30:52] 
[30:52] of  metrics  we  have  the  the  Corpus  of
[30:54] 
[30:54] data  is  so  small  uh  that  it  doesn't
[30:57] 
[30:57] really  you  know  allow  us  to  optimize  for
[30:59] 
[30:59] things  and  so  on  we  can  look  at  the
[31:00] 
[31:00] analytics  in  the  universe  in  the  market
[31:02] 
[31:02] which  are  useful  but  they're  not
[31:04] 
[31:04] detailed  enough  for  us  to  to  take
[31:06] 
[31:06] decision  specific  decisions  so  we  have
[31:08] 
[31:08] to  kind  of  combine  both  how  we  solve  it
[31:10] 
[31:10] is  is  uh  qualitative  data  we  do  a  lot  of
[31:14] 
[31:14] talking  to  customers  that's  one  thing
[31:15] 
[31:15] that  for  me  is  a  mantra  is  whenever  we
[31:17] 
[31:17] didn't  know  something  is  like  everybody
[31:18] 
[31:18] shut  up  right  now  who  talk  to  a  customer
[31:20] 
[31:20] here  like  you  know  sh  should  we  do  this
[31:22] 
[31:22] feature  or  this  other  one  and  then
[31:24] 
[31:24] everybody  has  an  opinion  but  then  it's
[31:26] 
[31:26] clear  when  they  don't  really  know  what
[31:27] 
[31:27] has  to  to  be  done  like  who  talked  to  a
[31:29] 
[31:29] customer  recently  okay  nobody  then  let's
[31:31] 
[31:31] stop  this  meeting  let's  all  go  talk  to
[31:33] 
[31:33] customers  and  then  let's  have  this
[31:34] 
[31:34] meeting  again  and  it's  not  a  ton  of
[31:36] 
[31:36] metrics  but  it's  something  and  I'm  also
[31:39] 
[31:39] curious  I  mean  uh  you're  super  fresh  but
[31:41] 
[31:42] you  worked  in  a  super  established
[31:43] 
[31:43] company  where  I  mean  you  said  that  a
[31:45] 
[31:45] small  small  decision  can  you  know
[31:47] 
[31:47] generate  a  million  haters  around  the
[31:49] 
[31:49] world  uh  did  you  ever  do  went  go  with
[31:53] 
[31:53] your  gut  as  well  I  mean  you  have  maybe
[31:55] 
[31:55] one  of  the  biggest  data  pools  in  the
[31:57] 
[31:57] world  you  know  to  base  your  products  on
[31:59] 
[31:59] but  yeah  uh  with  a  lot  of  brilliant
[32:01] 
[32:01] people  I  can  imagine  people  have  these
[32:03] 
[32:03] Amazing  Ideas  you  know  what's  the  next
[32:05] 
[32:05] thing  at  Google  this  you  got  to  build
[32:07] 
[32:07] this  what  do  you  think  well  there's  a
[32:09] 
[32:10] lot  of  pressure  also  on  Google  to  come
[32:11] 
[32:11] up  with  the  next  big  thing  and
[32:14] 
[32:14] internally  that's  something  that  Google
[32:15] 
[32:15] really  wants  to  do  always  invent  the
[32:18] 
[32:18] future  uh  just  to  balance  this  I  was  in
[32:21] 
[32:21] Small  startups  as  well  in  the  past  so  I
[32:23] 
[32:23] was  sitting  in  you  guys  uh  position
[32:25] 
[32:25] right  um  I  think  even  if  you  have  a
[32:28] 
[32:28] product  like  Gmail  well  if  you  have  tal
[32:30] 
[32:30] data  established  users  has  been  around
[32:32] 
[32:32] since
[32:33] 
[32:33] 2004  when  you  do  this  next  kind  of  more
[32:37] 
[32:37] revolutionary  feature  you're  still
[32:40] 
[32:40] peering  into  the  abys  you  don't  really
[32:42] 
[32:42] know  what's  going  to  happen  in  the
[32:43] 
[32:43] future  and  uh  sometimes  your  prediction
[32:46] 
[32:46] is  as  good  as  mine  the  experts  the
[32:48] 
[32:48] people  have  been  working  on  this  for
[32:49] 
[32:49] years  sometimes  they  don't  know  really
[32:52] 
[32:52] we  may  think  we  know  and  there's  a  lot
[32:54] 
[32:54] of  psychological  mechanism  that  to
[32:56] 
[32:56] convince  us  that  we  know  we  remember
[32:57] 
[32:57] only  our  right  decisions  sometimes  we
[32:59] 
[32:59] even  subconsciously  change  our  memory
[33:02] 
[33:02] and  we  remember  that  we  chose  the  right
[33:04] 
[33:04] decision  even  when  we  chose  the  wrong
[33:05] 
[33:05] one  there's  a  lot  of  mechanism  there
[33:07] 
[33:07] this  uh  genius  uh  entrepreneur  genius
[33:12] 
[33:12] inventor  uh  phenomena  where  we  attribute
[33:14] 
[33:14] to  other  people  ability  to  peer  into  the
[33:16] 
[33:16] future  the  visioner  doesn't  really  I
[33:19] 
[33:19] think  it's  it's  not  really  a  thing  it's
[33:21] 
[33:22] like  some  people  are  very  lucky  and  very
[33:24] 
[33:24] good  at  building  teams  around  and  very
[33:25] 
[33:25] good  at  building  process  to  to  in  the
[33:27] 
[33:28] future  but  it's  not  just  the  vision  so
[33:31] 
[33:31] um  I  think  the  industry  in  general  in
[33:34] 
[33:34] the  past  five  six  10  years  is  starting
[33:36] 
[33:36] to  move  away  from  this  opinion  based
[33:38] 
[33:38] intuition  based  development  into  more  um
[33:43] 
[33:43] hypothesis  testing  based  and  I  think  the
[33:46] 
[33:46] question  you  always  have  to  ask  yourself
[33:48] 
[33:48] is  like  I  have  a  good  idea  that's
[33:50] 
[33:50] intuition  is  super  important  we  should
[33:51] 
[33:51] not  throw  it  away  I  have  something  that
[33:54] 
[33:54] I  really  think  is  a  good  idea  what's  the
[33:56] 
[33:56] minimal  test  I  can  invent  now  to  start
[33:58] 
[33:58] validating  it  yeah  and  am  I  when  I  look
[34:02] 
[34:02] at  the  results  of  the  tests  are  they
[34:04] 
[34:04] going  to  be  conclusive  enough  that  I  can
[34:05] 
[34:05] convince  myself  and  others  that  this  is
[34:07] 
[34:07] either  a  good  idea  or  a  bad  idea  doesn't
[34:09] 
[34:09] need  to  be  a  full  conviction  it  just
[34:11] 
[34:11] need  to  take  you  to  the  next  step  uh  but
[34:14] 
[34:14] that's  hard  even  in  Google  sometimes  to
[34:16] 
[34:16] convince  people  sometimes  people  come
[34:18] 
[34:18] from  the  top  and  say  wow  this  is  the
[34:20] 
[34:20] future  iot  this  is  going  to  change
[34:22] 
[34:23] everything  yeah  and  go  it's  very  hard  to
[34:26] 
[34:26] fight  a  wave  yeah  uh  but  with  this  kind
[34:29] 
[34:29] of  methodological  did  you  say  wave  was
[34:31] 
[34:31] this  a  pan  there
[34:34] 
[34:34] or  was  it  you  it  wasn't  me  I  met  some  of
[34:38] 
[34:38] the  people  and  they  very  small  and  very
[34:39] 
[34:39] capable  people  and  maybe  they  were  a  bit
[34:42] 
[34:42] ahead  of  their  time  uh  so  so  it's  hard
[34:46] 
[34:46] to  kind  of  come  but  if  you  have  data  MH
[34:49] 
[34:49] everyone  even  the  most  opinionated
[34:51] 
[34:51] manager  will  shut  up  and  say  okay  you're
[34:53] 
[34:53] right  so  so  really  important  in  our  case
[34:56] 
[34:56] what  we  always  did  is  first  first  uh
[34:58] 
[34:58] sell  and  then  produce  so  uh  for  for
[35:03] 
[35:03] especially  for  the  more  obvious  things
[35:05] 
[35:05] uh  what  we  always  did  in  in  kipu  was  to
[35:07] 
[35:08] first  uh  translate  our  our  idea  of  our
[35:12] 
[35:12] product  idea  or  feature  idea  whatever  it
[35:13] 
[35:13] is  to  the  market  see  if  they  will  buy  it
[35:15] 
[35:15] or  not  and  then  and  then  produce  it  no
[35:18] 
[35:18] now  with  the  time  that  we  have  more  data
[35:20] 
[35:20] we  know  more  knowledge  about  our
[35:23] 
[35:23] customers  we  always  um  um  this
[35:27] 
[35:27] information  we  we  we  just  um  uh  know  we
[35:31] 
[35:31] gather  it  through  support  and  and  one  of
[35:34] 
[35:34] the  things  that  uh  our  support  team  uh
[35:38] 
[35:38] support  for  me  is  not  about
[35:41] 
[35:41] uh  solving  incidences  or  issues  it's
[35:44] 
[35:44] about  uh  talking  to  the  customer
[35:46] 
[35:46] understanding  their  needs  so  that's  why
[35:48] 
[35:48] uh  one  of  the  M  uh  the  things  that  we
[35:51] 
[35:51] always  have  is  is  that  support  team
[35:53] 
[35:53] should  uh  should  listen  to  the  customer
[35:56] 
[35:56] and  then  it's  our  job  to  to  translate  it
[35:58] 
[35:58] into  the  product  no  and  and  then  um  if
[36:01] 
[36:02] we  do  something  it  has  to  be  aligned
[36:03] 
[36:03] with  our  vision  then  if  if  it's  not  and
[36:06] 
[36:06] we  don't  do  do  it  because  we  can  do
[36:07] 
[36:07] thousand  of  features  but  if  in  our  case
[36:10] 
[36:10] if  it's  not  in  order  to  automatize
[36:12] 
[36:12] administrative  processes  then  we  don't
[36:13] 
[36:13] do  it  that's  that's  the  idea  and  and  and
[36:16] 
[36:16] in  the  past  we  took  a  lot  of  decisions
[36:18] 
[36:19] that  were  not  wrong  not  completely  wrong
[36:21] 
[36:21] but  there  were  the  results  are  were  are
[36:24] 
[36:24] wasn't  as  as  good  as  we
[36:26] 
[36:26] expect  but  we  had  an  a  valid  a  first
[36:29] 
[36:29] validation  exercise  then  the  thing  is
[36:30] 
[36:30] that  it  was  not  the  the  right  Market  fit
[36:33] 
[36:33] or  not  the  the  optimal  Market  fit  it's
[36:35] 
[36:35] all  right  I  mean  we  and  we  learn  from
[36:37] 
[36:37] that  and  and  we  learn  to  take  less  uh
[36:40] 
[36:40] schizophrenic  decisions  no  but  this  is  a
[36:42] 
[36:43] part  of  the  process  it's  difficult
[36:45] 
[36:45] especially  in  in  an  early  stage  uh
[36:47] 
[36:47] startup  to  have  full  picture  and
[36:50] 
[36:50] information  especially  because  uh  you
[36:52] 
[36:52] don't  have  enough  customers  probably  to
[36:54] 
[36:54] validate  uh  and  it's  not  that  simple  no
[36:58] 
[36:58] and  then  it  turns  to  be  easier  when
[36:59] 
[36:59] you've  got  more  customers
[37:01] 
[37:01] you  but  but  but  it's  about  intuition  for
[37:04] 
[37:04] me  as  well  no  because  in  the  end  we  are
[37:07] 
[37:07] trying  to  to  to  produce  things  that  are
[37:09] 
[37:09] more  obvious  that  people  ask  for  it  but
[37:12] 
[37:12] but  I'm  more  interested  on  on  on  on
[37:14] 
[37:14] solving  a  problem  which  is  not  that
[37:16] 
[37:16] obvious  and  build  a  technology  or  a
[37:17] 
[37:17] product  that  is  not  that  obvious  and
[37:18] 
[37:18] this  is  you  won't  get  that  word  for  the
[37:21] 
[37:21] customer  no  that's  why  we  try  to  explain
[37:23] 
[37:23] to  them  our  our  idea  our  vision  and  then
[37:26] 
[37:26] see  if  if  if  we  can  we  can  make  it  or
[37:28] 
[37:28] not  right  so  uh  very  interesting  but  we
[37:31] 
[37:31] have  to  come  to  an  end  uh  so  before  we
[37:34] 
[37:34] uh  before  we  end  uh  I  want  to  take  a
[37:36] 
[37:36] last  round  and  ask  each  one  of  you  if
[37:38] 
[37:38] you  were  to  manage  a  product  that's  not
[37:40] 
[37:40] your  own  tomorrow  a  company  a  product
[37:43] 
[37:43] that  you  know  what  what  kind  of  product
[37:44] 
[37:44] would  you  would  you  love  to  manage  would
[37:46] 
[37:46] you  be  interesting  to  manage  uh  so  we
[37:48] 
[37:48] can  start  with  you  J  I  was  hoping  you
[37:50] 
[37:50] didn't  start  with  me  I  have  no  idea
[37:53] 
[37:53] [Music]
[37:56] 
[37:56] um  it's  I'm  I'm  so  deep  inside  the
[37:59] 
[37:59] product  I  am  right  now  running  good
[38:01] 
[38:01] that's  a  good  sign  you  can't  think  of
[38:02] 
[38:02] any  other  product  than  your  own  hard  to
[38:03] 
[38:03] step  out
[38:05] 
[38:05] um  I  think  anything  that  has  a  big
[38:08] 
[38:08] transform  like  a  big  impact  in  how  uh
[38:11] 
[38:11] businesses  operate  is  something  that  I'm
[38:13] 
[38:13] really  into  so  you  know  I've  been
[38:15] 
[38:16] working  on  this  in  different  angles  in
[38:17] 
[38:17] the  past  but  it's  very  interesting  to
[38:20] 
[38:20] look  at  a  company  with  10  or  10,000
[38:23] 
[38:23] employees  and  then  kind  of  change  how
[38:26] 
[38:26] they  work  through  a  produ  right  and  this
[38:28] 
[38:28] product  can  be  Services  can  be
[38:29] 
[38:29] technology  can  be  software  mobile  apps
[38:31] 
[38:31] whatever  um  definitely  one  that  gives  me
[38:34] 
[38:34] the  opportunity  to  impact  more
[38:36] 
[38:36] businesses  uh  would  be  something  very
[38:38] 
[38:38] interesting  to  work  on  do  you  have
[38:40] 
[38:40] something  specific  not  so  specific  but
[38:43] 
[38:43] it's  uh  it's  kind  of  like  much  more
[38:46] 
[38:46] ambitious  there's  a  theory  that  every
[38:50] 
[38:50] few  years  every  generation  and  it
[38:51] 
[38:51] shortens  there's  a  new  medium  that  kind
[38:55] 
[38:55] of  subsumes  the  old  medium  and  and  uh
[38:58] 
[38:58] changes  it  and  antagonizes  the  all  the
[39:00] 
[39:00] old  generation  and  changes  everything
[39:03] 
[39:03] I'll  give  an  example  in  the  past  we  were
[39:05] 
[39:05] tell  stories  to  each  other  in  around  the
[39:07] 
[39:07] campfire  but  then  books  came  and  started
[39:09] 
[39:09] putting  the  stories  into  books  and  then
[39:12] 
[39:12] uh  movies  came  and  started  putting  books
[39:14] 
[39:14] into  movies  and  then  TV  started  putting
[39:17] 
[39:17] movies  into  TV  and  then  the  internet
[39:19] 
[39:19] came  and  started  putting  TV  and  each  one
[39:22] 
[39:22] of  these  waves  and  the  web  Etc  so
[39:26] 
[39:26] finding  the  next  wave
[39:28] 
[39:28] of  the  next  medium  that  will  subsume  the
[39:30] 
[39:30] web  and  YouTube  and  everything
[39:31] 
[39:32] antagonize  all  the  existing  established
[39:34] 
[39:34] tech  companies  and  the  uh  content
[39:37] 
[39:37] companies  and  we'll  change  everything
[39:40] 
[39:40] that  for  me  is  exciting  I  don't  know  how
[39:41] 
[39:41] to  what  it  is  but  I'm  willing  to  start
[39:44] 
[39:45] exploring  all  right  all  right
[39:46] 
[39:46] interesting  answer  not  very  specific
[39:47] 
[39:47] still  let's  moving  on  to  to  ro  no  for  me
[39:52] 
[39:52] to  work  uh  it's  quite  similar  to  what
[39:54] 
[39:54] Jordy  says  no  for  me  because  I'm  working
[39:57] 
[39:57] for  comp  uh  as  in  a  B2B  business  and  I
[40:01] 
[40:01] really  enjoy  much  more  B2B  than  b2c
[40:03] 
[40:03] because  I  think  it's  uh  they  have  a
[40:05] 
[40:05] stronger  impact  on  on  on  on  Society  for
[40:09] 
[40:09] me  I  would  love  to  to  to  to  deal  with  a
[40:13] 
[40:13] product  that  helps  to  take  uh  better
[40:15] 
[40:15] decisions  no  and  basically  what  we  know
[40:17] 
[40:17] that  nowaday  we've  got  lot  of  data
[40:20] 
[40:20] available  too  much  data  it's  it's  what
[40:22] 
[40:22] happens  to  us  sometimes  we  Pro  we
[40:24] 
[40:24] generate  more  data  than  we  are  able  in
[40:25] 
[40:25] our  company  to  to  to  to  analyze  and
[40:28] 
[40:28] understand  and  to  take  right  decisions
[40:29] 
[40:30] everyone  knows  the  theory  you  know  okay
[40:31] 
[40:31] you  have  to  look  at  data  and  then  take
[40:33] 
[40:33] decisions  yeah  but  this  takes  a  lot  of
[40:35] 
[40:35] time  sometimes  it  takes  so  much  time
[40:38] 
[40:38] that  then  you  you  come  up  with  an
[40:39] 
[40:39] intuition  and  with  uh  so  for  me  it  makes
[40:42] 
[40:42] sense  to  to  create  a  a  software  who
[40:46] 
[40:46] helps  dealing  with  with  this  uh  huge
[40:49] 
[40:49] amount  of  data  and  for  me  it's  it's  not
[40:51] 
[40:51] about  big  data  issues  it's  it's  more
[40:53] 
[40:53] about  things  more  practical  I  would  love
[40:56] 
[40:56] to  oper  my  computer  and  and  see  a  a
[41:00] 
[41:00] bunch  of  data  that  helps  me  as  a  CEO  or
[41:03] 
[41:03] other  positions  a  Salesman  or  whatever
[41:05] 
[41:05] know  in  order  to  take  decisions  so  for
[41:07] 
[41:07] me  probably  will  be  a  a  company  that
[41:10] 
[41:10] deals  with  that  right  right  so  uh  we
[41:14] 
[41:14] need  to  finish  thank  you  so  much  for
[41:16] 
[41:16] coming  both  uh
[41:20] 
[41:20] Roar  jilad  and  J  Romero  uh  my  name  is
[41:25] 
[41:25] cindra  hopan  I'm  the  media  manager  at
[41:27] 
[41:27] ethnik  every  month  we  have  this  podcast
[41:29] 
[41:29] so  uh  please  feel  free  to  subscribe  to
[41:33] 
[41:33] our  our  Channel  and  also  you'll  find  the
[41:35] 
[41:35] video  of  the  podcast  on  our  YouTube
[41:37] 
[41:37] channel
[41:40] 
[41:40] [Music]