UX Research: How to get under the skin of your users — vídeo y transcripción

[00:03] [Music]
[00:14] 
[00:14] so  welcome  Brianna  Camille  and  Nastasia
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[00:17] thank  you  all  for  coming  today
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[00:19] ethnic  podcast  we're  very  happy  to  have
[00:20] 
[00:20] you  here  sharing  your  UX  experience
[00:22] 
[00:22] thank  you  so  to  start  off  to  really  get
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[00:27] people  to  understand  what  you  do  day  to
[00:29] 
[00:29] day  I  want  to  dive  into  how  you  work  as
[00:33] 
[00:33] UX  designers  and  also  UX  researcher  here
[00:36] 
[00:36] which  is  a  part  of  that  job  and  I  want
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[00:39] to  start  with  you  you  natasja  I  mean  is
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[00:42] it  possible  to  explain  how  much  time  you
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[00:45] actually  spend  with  the  users  I  mean
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[00:47] talking  with  them  observing  them
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[00:50] actually  interacting  with  the  users  in  a
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[00:52] project  or  in  a  month  well  first  of  all
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[00:55] I  will  start  that  I  do  have  two  jobs  at
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[00:57] the  moment  on  the  finish  for  Aaron  tax
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[01:00] which  is  coding  in  school  here  in
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[01:03] Barcelona  in  part  of  my  job  50%  of  my
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[01:07] days  writing  and  the  content  for
[01:09] 
[01:09] students  so  it's  not  really  a  office  job
[01:13] 
[01:13] for  their  product  but  at  the  same  time
[01:17] 
[01:17] I'm  working  remotely  for  epilim  which  is
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[01:20] part  of  so  interactive  school  and  I  help
[01:23] 
[01:23] them  with  research  I  help  them  with
[01:24] 
[01:24] excerpt  students  in  general  and  I  make
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[01:29] users  to  one  or  two  weeks  we're
[01:33] 
[01:33] organizing  a  session  and  recruit  the
[01:35] 
[01:35] users  and  it  is  something  we're  testing
[01:38] 
[01:38] something  or  it  might  be  a  focus  group
[01:40] 
[01:40] it  might  be  something  else  thank  right
[01:42] 
[01:42] at  the  moment  it's  like  one  book  two
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[01:45] weeks  you  meeting  them  face  to  face
[01:46] 
[01:46] ah  yes  face  to  face  and  the  other  time
[01:50] 
[01:50] we  might  be  working  with  so  tracking
[01:52] 
[01:52] tools  and  I  speak  with  our  product
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[01:56] owners  identify  our  KPIs  what  are  we
[02:00] 
[02:00] looking  for  and  what  are  the  problems
[02:01] 
[02:01] the  typical  situations  that  they  come  to
[02:04] 
[02:04] me  we  have  troubles  consuming  right  and
[02:07] 
[02:07] we  have  a  hypothesis  where  it's
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[02:08] happening
[02:08] 
[02:09] see  the  metrics  menu  like  okay
[02:12] 
[02:12] we  can  do  how  we  can  so  we  have  an
[02:14] 
[02:14] weirdest  sense  why  it's  happening  and
[02:16] 
[02:17] that's  the  kind  of  like  that  the  amount
[02:18] 
[02:18] of  time  that  appalam  needs  a  UX
[02:20] 
[02:20] researcher  like  twice  twice  every  second
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[02:25] week  is  that  yeah  mainly  because  I  don't
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[02:29] have  that  much  time  at  the  moment
[02:30] 
[02:30] right  alright  so  you  would  like  to  do  it
[02:32] 
[02:32] more  or  yeah  usually  do  it  once  a  week
[02:34] 
[02:34] okay  but  now  because  of  the  context
[02:36] 
[02:36] writing  force  right  you're  busy
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[02:39] yes  so  moving  on  to  you  Brianna  I  mean
[02:42] 
[02:42] you're  doing  a  UX  that  I  form  a  company
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[02:46] that  most  of  us  know  I  mean  you  have
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[02:48] thousands  of  users  and  and  you're  also
[02:50] 
[02:50] famous  for  being  a  user  driven  company  I
[02:53] 
[02:53] guess  us  is  is  very  important  for  you
[02:56] 
[02:56] it's  impossible  to  do  in  any  way  kind  of
[02:59] 
[02:59] define  what's  UX  in  tight  for  me  so  UX
[03:06] 
[03:06] in  general  I  think  for  me  is  is  the
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[03:08] users  voice  right
[03:11] 
[03:11] through  a  lens  of  somebody  exchange  and
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[03:14] understanding  and  getting  getting  to
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[03:19] understand  problems  that  these  are
[03:21] 
[03:21] having  right  so  I  think  that's  general  I
[03:23] 
[03:23] don't  think  it's  any  different  inside
[03:25] 
[03:25] for  music  lamp  for  me  we  have  the  way  we
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[03:30] work  is  that  we  have  our  UX  designers
[03:33] 
[03:33] and  joy  signers  embedded  in  forms  and
[03:38] 
[03:38] came  working  with  developers  actually
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[03:41] and  scrum  masters  and  product  people  and
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[03:47] customers  and  so  what  everybody  kind  of
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[03:51] works  together  but  so  there's  research
[03:55] 
[03:55] happening  all  the  time  there's
[03:57] 
[03:57] communication  customers  happening  all
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[04:00] the  time  and  I  like  to  look  at  it  as  per
[04:02] 
[04:02] project  so  usually  there's  some
[04:05] 
[04:05] hypothesis  that  you  have  and  something
[04:08] 
[04:08] that  you  want  to  find  out  and  depending
[04:10] 
[04:10] on  that  question  you're  designing  the
[04:12] 
[04:12] communication  and  the  interactions
[04:14] 
[04:14] customers  our  customers  happen  to  me  a
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[04:17] lot  of  them  overseas  in  the  u.s.  so  we
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[04:19] talked  to  them  via  video  via  voice  or
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[04:22] phone  and  when  we  can  like  to  have  them
[04:25] 
[04:25] come  in  and  if  it's  the  same  I  mean  in
[04:28] 
[04:28] terms  of  how  much  you  talk  with  them  it
[04:31] 
[04:31] is  possible  to  say  it's  probably  very
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[04:32] different  from  project  to  project  but  it
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[04:34] seems  like  it's  happening  time  right
[04:36] 
[04:36] because  each  each  team  is  working  on  its
[04:39] 
[04:39] own  project  in  a  way  right  so  there's  a
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[04:41] total  of  five  experiments  together  and
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[04:44] so  there's  I  hear  people  a  little
[04:47] 
[04:47] dialing  and  making  phone  calls  to
[04:48] 
[04:48] customers  every  day  you  know  it  is
[04:51] 
[04:51] somebody  at  work  an  it  but  I  think
[04:53] 
[04:53] generally  probably  what  you  say  every
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[04:56] every  week  or  two  at  some  point  but  like
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[05:00] I  said  it's  a  project  basis  so  there  is
[05:04] 
[05:04] a  project  currently  that's  happening
[05:06] 
[05:06] where  we're  trying  to  map  out  the  user
[05:08] 
[05:08] journey  for  a  particular  type  of
[05:09] 
[05:09] customer  and  so  but  that's  kind  of  a
[05:13] 
[05:13] bigger  project  where  everybody's  talking
[05:15] 
[05:15] and  taking  you  know  four  to  six  weeks  to
[05:17] 
[05:17] put  it  together  so  how  many  times  as
[05:20] 
[05:20] many  as  needed  yeah  yeah  exactly  exactly
[05:23] 
[05:23] sometimes  we  need  more  all  right  I  mean
[05:27] 
[05:27] that's  four  times  four  which  I  mean
[05:29] 
[05:29] millions  of  users  and  then  you  have
[05:30] 
[05:30] Camille  you're  here  you're  at  khipu  I
[05:33] 
[05:33] mean  a  fairly  big  start  a  book  in  Spain
[05:36] 
[05:36] in  Europe  but  it  still  it's  another
[05:37] 
[05:37] scale  and  I  mean  you're  you  don't  have
[05:40] 
[05:40] like  a  huge  team  of  UX  people  around  you
[05:43] 
[05:43] like  most  started  they  don't  I  mean  how
[05:46] 
[05:46] does  your  your  approach  yeah  I  think
[05:49] 
[05:49] it's  in  keep  with  base  well  it's  a  team
[05:52] 
[05:52] effort  despite  not  having  many  designers
[05:54] 
[05:54] here  we  share  roles  we  have  a  product
[05:57] 
[05:57] owner  we  have  the  customer  support  team
[06:00] 
[06:00] and  we  try  to  collaborate  it's  a
[06:03] 
[06:03] constant  discussion  collaboration
[06:05] 
[06:05] between  us  then  we  have  developers  to
[06:08] 
[06:08] find  constraints  but  in  terms  of  users  I
[06:11] 
[06:11] have  a  lot  of  metrics  here  we  have  a
[06:14] 
[06:14] good  VI  to  to  monitor  everything  and  do
[06:20] 
[06:20] you  have  seen  you  do  some  UX  interviews
[06:22] 
[06:22] here  at  work  is  that  like  your  main
[06:25] 
[06:25] approach  in  terms  of  understand
[06:28] 
[06:28] how  people  use  your  product  yes  but
[06:30] 
[06:30] that's  at  the  later  stage  when  when  we
[06:32] 
[06:32] have  a  prototype  and  beforehand  we
[06:35] 
[06:35] identify  problems  with  our  project  team
[06:38] 
[06:38] with  customer  support  um  especially  now
[06:41] 
[06:41] for  example  with  with  the  new  project  we
[06:44] 
[06:44] have  we  identified  problems  of  one
[06:46] 
[06:46] particular  customers  like  like  you
[06:48] 
[06:48] inside  form  and  we  tried  beforehand  we
[06:52] 
[06:52] try  to  identify  the  main  problems  they
[06:54] 
[06:54] have  while  working  and  it  was  that  the
[06:56] 
[06:56] problem  is  verifying  their  information  I
[06:59] 
[06:59] mean  it's  not  like  problems  but  more
[07:02] 
[07:02] like  I'm  saying  it  so  much  in  sorry  yeah
[07:11] 
[07:11] they  they  have  problems  verifying
[07:13] 
[07:13] information  in  terms  of  it's  a  industry
[07:15] 
[07:15] problem  so  they  they  are  bookkeepers  and
[07:18] 
[07:18] they  get  to  go  through  a  lot  of
[07:20] 
[07:20] information  and  we  had  to  type  into
[07:21] 
[07:21] their  workflows  and  accommodate  to  that
[07:24] 
[07:24] so  you  had  a  couple  of  calls  with  them
[07:27] 
[07:27] beforehand  what  I  did  find  the  problem
[07:30] 
[07:30] we  went  to  the  prototyping  and  NASA  not
[07:32] 
[07:32] this  dot  before  the  interviews  that  that
[07:34] 
[07:34] you  might  have  seen  here  and  I  mean
[07:37] 
[07:37] you're  also  talking  about  that  your
[07:39] 
[07:39] approach  having  people  face-to-face  at
[07:42] 
[07:42] your  office  especially  with  that  balloon
[07:44] 
[07:44] I  mean  what  kind  of  people  do  you  gather
[07:47] 
[07:47] I  mean  you're  going  on  series  and
[07:49] 
[07:49] getting  ten  random  people  or  I  mean  what
[07:51] 
[07:51] kind  of  users  are  you  looking  for  well
[07:54] 
[07:54] before  you  recruit  any  user  of  course
[07:57] 
[07:57] you  have  to  understand  that  your  user
[07:58] 
[07:58] types  you  will  use  a  personal  that's  why
[08:01] 
[08:01] before  I  was  saying  that  you  three  sir
[08:03] 
[08:03] it's  not  really  that  and  you  will  invent
[08:05] 
[08:05] it  this  is  a  hybrid  roll  that  has  a  lot
[08:09] 
[08:09] of  academic  research  taking  some  from
[08:13] 
[08:13] the  past  is  delta  T  right  it's  just  the
[08:17] 
[08:17] perfect  series  that  just  defines  that
[08:19] 
[08:19] okay  we're  we're  doing  everything  they
[08:22] 
[08:22] are  the  principles  of  user  experience  to
[08:23] 
[08:23] learn  something  a  little  bit  but  the
[08:25] 
[08:25] research  part  is  something  that  also
[08:28] 
[08:28] don't  by  marketing  people  change  because
[08:32] 
[08:32] like  they  identify  markets  feed  market
[08:35] 
[08:35] acceptance  with  their  own  messages
[08:38] 
[08:38] what  we're  doing  and  what  I'm  doing
[08:40] 
[08:40] particularly  at  the  moment  I'm  trying  to
[08:44] 
[08:44] search  for  people  that  are  complement
[08:47] 
[08:47] with  the  profiles  of  our  user  personas
[08:51] 
[08:51] of  our  segment  marketers  and  I  call  it
[08:54] 
[08:54] signal  Oracle  user  person  so  we  just
[08:57] 
[08:57] look  for  the  profiles  with  the  age  that
[09:01] 
[09:01] we're  looking  for  with  their  occupation
[09:04] 
[09:04] with  same  motivations  as  we  have
[09:07] 
[09:07] searched  before  and  you  know  -  yes  yeah
[09:10] 
[09:10] I  mean  as  you  say  I  mean  this  is  a
[09:12] 
[09:12] collaborative  efforts  of  everyone  inside
[09:15] 
[09:15] the  company  and  also  we  have  many  years
[09:17] 
[09:17] which  is  not  something  new  as  you  added
[09:19] 
[09:19] Brianna  I  mean  for  me  it's  kind  of  hard
[09:23] 
[09:23] to  understand  what's  the  westin  what's
[09:27] 
[09:27] the  new  thing  about  UX  research  compared
[09:29] 
[09:29] to  other  research  done  by  other  people
[09:31] 
[09:31] you  know  in  other  sectors  it's  hard  to
[09:34] 
[09:34] define  or  if  they're  kind  of  like  the
[09:36] 
[09:36] fish  definition  new  or  different
[09:41] 
[09:41] yeah  what's  different  is  the  kind  of  end
[09:43] 
[09:43] product  areas  like  the  digital
[09:45] 
[09:45] interfaces  actual  technology  side  but
[09:51] 
[09:51] the  way  that  you  saw  problems  your
[09:53] 
[09:53] creative  thinking  is  that  around  for
[09:55] 
[09:55] thousands  of  years  right  like  you  have
[09:57] 
[09:57] really  long  industry  -  you  know
[10:01] 
[10:01] architecture  and  industrial  design  for  a
[10:05] 
[10:05] long  time  and  these  kinds  of  approaches
[10:09] 
[10:09] like  interviewing  a  customer  Pena  what
[10:11] 
[10:11] their  problem  is  you  know  designing  for
[10:13] 
[10:13] somebody  else  has  they're  out  for  very
[10:16] 
[10:16] long  time  maybe  something's  tool  the
[10:19] 
[10:19] techniques  of  the  bulb  and  we  give  them
[10:21] 
[10:21] different  names  may  be  in  this  new  words
[10:23] 
[10:23] that  were  presented  right  like  us  user
[10:27] 
[10:27] experience  design  it  was  a  call  down
[10:29] 
[10:29] before  it  was  like  you  know  systems
[10:32] 
[10:32] engineering  information  architects  so
[10:35] 
[10:35] there  is  and  there's  specific
[10:37] 
[10:37] information  architects  to  deal  with  just
[10:39] 
[10:39] that  but  it's  the  out  the  process  is
[10:44] 
[10:45] very  similar  it's  improved  it's  a  wall
[10:48] 
[10:48] that  people  right  right  so  you  I  mean  it
[10:53] 
[10:53] is  an  advantage  having  a  UX  researcher
[10:55] 
[10:55] onboarding  or  startup  but  it's  not  a
[10:57] 
[10:57] necessity  in  the  start  or  I  think  it  is
[10:59] 
[10:59] I  think  it  is  because  the  closer  you  get
[11:03] 
[11:03] to  the  customer  what  they're  actually
[11:04] 
[11:04] doing  the  more  you  will  have  confidence
[11:09] 
[11:09] or  the  more  likely  it  will  be  that  you
[11:11] 
[11:11] will  actually  solve  problems  at
[11:13] 
[11:13] Anthony's  so  right  I  don't  think  there
[11:16] 
[11:16] is  ever  time  with  early  enough  or  I
[11:19] 
[11:19] think  from  the  beginning  you  see  the
[11:21] 
[11:21] value  of  us  and  then  there's  you  know
[11:25] 
[11:25] there's  really  a  lot  of  overlap  usually
[11:27] 
[11:27] I  work  for  me  personally  I've  usually
[11:29] 
[11:29] worked  somewhere  from  research  and  like
[11:34] 
[11:34] hype  stories  wireframes
[11:36] 
[11:36] right  I  think  it's  really  important  for
[11:38] 
[11:38] the  person  who's  doing  a  research  and
[11:39] 
[11:39] communicating  if  the  customers  were
[11:41] 
[11:41] possible  to  be  actually  translating  the
[11:44] 
[11:44] findings  and  write  something  some  kind
[11:46] 
[11:46] of  a  solution  because  that  person  is
[11:48] 
[11:48] there  the  reports  that  come  out  of  it  or
[11:52] 
[11:52] the  documentation  that  we  deliver  as  a
[11:54] 
[11:54] result  of  research  it's  a  way  to
[11:57] 
[11:57] communicate  what  was  discovered  and  what
[12:00] 
[12:00] was  found  but  there's  no  replacing
[12:01] 
[12:01] correction  being  there  at  x1  we  try  to
[12:04] 
[12:04] have  as  many  people  involved  in  actual
[12:07] 
[12:07] interview  process  and  product  owners
[12:09] 
[12:09] engineers  are  invited  occasionally  at
[12:11] 
[12:11] least  you  know  can't  be  there  every  day
[12:13] 
[12:13] if  there  may  not  their  core  competency
[12:16] 
[12:16] right  like  sure  but  see  being  there  and
[12:19] 
[12:20] seeing  and  emphasizing  as  a  customer  and
[12:22] 
[12:22] seeing  what  happens  when  these  product
[12:24] 
[12:24] or  seeing  that  they  say  is  incredibly
[12:26] 
[12:26] powerful  anything  is  really  valuable  for
[12:28] 
[12:28] it  especially  it  may  be  a  small  start-up
[12:31] 
[12:31] where  there  is  a  handful  of  people  for
[12:33] 
[12:33] everybody  to  be  there  at  some  point  when
[12:35] 
[12:35] the  interviews  are  happening  and
[12:36] 
[12:36] actually  listening  to  the  customers  it's
[12:38] 
[12:38] not  super  valuable  so  I  mean  you  know  in
[12:41] 
[12:41] the  beginning  some  a  lot  of  research  is
[12:43] 
[12:43] done  also  can  be  done  by  product  donors
[12:46] 
[12:46] I  mean  there's  books  out  there  like
[12:47] 
[12:47] Erica  Hall  it's  just  enough  research
[12:49] 
[12:49] that  I  highly  recommended  for  a  team
[12:52] 
[12:52] that's  maybe  starting  maybe  you  know
[12:53] 
[12:53] there's  pacifically  a  youth  designer  but
[12:56] 
[12:56] there's  no  reason  why  they  can't  talk  to
[12:57] 
[12:57] customers  however  it's  doing  for  each
[13:00] 
[13:00] understand  how  to  talk  to  customers  and
[13:02] 
[13:02] what  kind  of  questions  to  be  asking  and
[13:04] 
[13:04] that's  where  the  experience  of  the
[13:06] 
[13:06] Europe  researcher  really  or  your
[13:08] 
[13:08] designer  general  that  through  experience
[13:11] 
[13:11] and  through  having  talked  to  customers
[13:13] 
[13:13] you  find  out  what  are  the  right
[13:14] 
[13:14] questions  tab  that's  because  that's  what
[13:18] 
[13:18] the  next  thing  I  want  to  dive  into  like
[13:19] 
[13:19] what  I'm  going  to  do  right  questions  to
[13:21] 
[13:21] ask  I  mean  we  can  start  with  you  Camille
[13:23] 
[13:23] I  mean  I've  actually  been  part  of  your
[13:25] 
[13:25] UX  what  to  research  myself  going  through
[13:29] 
[13:29] your  project  per  product  but  I  really
[13:32] 
[13:32] don't  remember  what  kind  of  questions
[13:34] 
[13:34] you  ask  what  do  you  what  are  your  can
[13:36] 
[13:36] you  say  like  what  are  your  favorite
[13:37] 
[13:37] question  well  if  I  don't  have  my
[13:39] 
[13:39] favorite  questions  I  guess  it  depends  on
[13:41] 
[13:41] the  exercise  are  we  doing  and  that
[13:43] 
[13:43] particular  one  we  did  was  to  test  the
[13:46] 
[13:46] set  of  wireframes  and  at  that  moment  I
[13:49] 
[13:49] like  to  just  observe  and  watch  users  I
[13:51] 
[13:51] ask  them  to  speak  out  loud  their  chain
[13:54] 
[13:54] of  thought  so  whatever  they  doing
[13:56] 
[13:56] whatever  they  think  they're  doing  I  like
[13:58] 
[13:58] to  hear  that  I  look  for  reactions  to  to
[14:01] 
[14:01] to  the  project  to  what  they  see  on  the
[14:05] 
[14:05] screen  and  I  generally  like  to  see  a
[14:08] 
[14:08] user  that's  using  the  live  thing  in
[14:12] 
[14:12] terms  of  questions  I  beforehand  I  asked
[14:16] 
[14:16] users  what  do  they  expect  to  see  and
[14:18] 
[14:18] what  do  they  expect  this  solution  ideal
[14:23] 
[14:23] solution  would  be  to  the  to  the  problem
[14:24] 
[14:24] and  that  I  would  say  that  that  would  be
[14:27] 
[14:27] my  favorite  question  hmm  beautiful  yes
[14:31] 
[14:31] well  I'll  just  point  and  add  a  little
[14:33] 
[14:33] bit  that  there's  a  golden  rule  for
[14:36] 
[14:36] researchers  and  us  content  nurses  were
[14:38] 
[14:38] always  open  questions  never  closed
[14:42] 
[14:42] questions  so  we  in  like  in  to  do
[14:46] 
[14:46] multiple  answers  and  act  really  naive  so
[14:50] 
[14:50] like  so  that  we  use  are  really  true  that
[14:52] 
[14:52] you  you  don't  even  know  nothing  about
[14:54] 
[14:54] this  product  right  and  that's  way  they
[14:56] 
[14:56] kind  of  filled  themselves  okay  I'm
[14:57] 
[14:57] believing  one  here  and  I  know  the  person
[15:01] 
[15:01] account  with  experience  or  STI  but  don't
[15:05] 
[15:05] be  judgmental  ative
[15:07] 
[15:07] human  here  is  naturally  natural  to  want
[15:10] 
[15:10] to  kind  of
[15:13] 
[15:13] make  the  other  person  happy  that  way  it
[15:15] 
[15:15] looks  so  the  customers  come  in  and  they
[15:17] 
[15:17] start  talking  to  you  if  you  give  them
[15:19] 
[15:19] any  indication  what  you  want  them  to  say
[15:21] 
[15:21] they're  going  to  try  to  say  it  if  they
[15:24] 
[15:24] see  that  you're  interested  in  saying
[15:26] 
[15:26] certain  thing  they're  going  to  try  to
[15:28] 
[15:28] code  those  expectations  so  it's  really
[15:30] 
[15:30] important  to  be  super  neutral  and  kind
[15:32] 
[15:32] of  pretend  you  don't  know  or  whatever
[15:35] 
[15:35] that  means  to  you  so  that  you  can  just
[15:37] 
[15:37] let  them  tell  you  what  what  they  saying
[15:39] 
[15:39] oh  boy
[15:41] 
[15:41] sorry  yeah  otherwise  you  lose  and  money
[15:42] 
[15:42] when  you  invest  in  their  advocacy  money
[15:46] 
[15:46] it's  it's  expensive  you  know  expenses
[15:49] 
[15:49] because  you  have  to  replace  them  you
[15:50] 
[15:50] have  to  save  them  I  mean  it's  super  nice
[15:52] 
[15:52] if  they're  ready  to  do  it  for  free  but
[15:56] 
[15:56] it's  a  it's  a  it's  a  balance  right
[15:59] 
[15:59] because  it  is  it's  hard  being  both
[16:01] 
[16:01] neutral  super  neutral  and  also  getting
[16:04] 
[16:04] really  valuable  answers  right  it  seems
[16:06] 
[16:06] to  me  or  no  it's  more  like  go  ahead  my
[16:10] 
[16:10] back  I  think  you  have  to  make  it
[16:13] 
[16:13] straight  before  the  interview  say
[16:15] 
[16:15] there's  no  right  or  wrong  and  it's  not
[16:17] 
[16:17] that  hard  to  be  neutral  in  fact  you  just
[16:20] 
[16:20] you  guide  users  to  write  questions
[16:22] 
[16:22] through  small  conversations  and  most
[16:25] 
[16:25] importantly  there's  no  right  or  wrong
[16:27] 
[16:27] and  I  guess  I  mean  soft  skills  got  to  be
[16:30] 
[16:30] quite  important  as  a  UX  designer  then  to
[16:32] 
[16:32] get  people  getting  people  on  your  skin  a
[16:34] 
[16:34] bit  you  know  getting  them  comfortable
[16:36] 
[16:36] right  and  I  mean  I  was  ever  I  guess
[16:43] 
[16:43] there  is  I  mean  both  the  positive
[16:45] 
[16:45] approach  that  we're  talking  about  now
[16:46] 
[16:46] talking  to  users  we  also  the
[16:48] 
[16:48] quantitative  you  know  approach  looking
[16:50] 
[16:50] at  numbers  we  are  not  a  size  forum  in
[16:53] 
[16:53] what  I  mean  at  least  because  you're
[16:56] 
[16:56] dealing  with  such  a  vast  amount  of  users
[16:59] 
[16:59] what's  most  important  for  you  didn't
[17:02] 
[17:02] give  you  one  side  of  the  story  you're
[17:04] 
[17:04] really  lucky  at  typeform  we  have  a  great
[17:06] 
[17:06] head  of  analytics  and  team  who  is
[17:10] 
[17:10] focused  on  crunching  the  numbers  and
[17:13] 
[17:13] getting  the  insights  and  answering  these
[17:15] 
[17:15] recent  big  important  business  questions
[17:17] 
[17:17] and  sometimes  they  can  also  answer  some
[17:20] 
[17:20] of  our
[17:21] 
[17:21] user  question  so  but  analytics  is  one
[17:25] 
[17:25] part  of  the  story  right  the  other  part
[17:27] 
[17:27] of  the  service  what  members  can't  tell
[17:29] 
[17:29] you  is  what's  actually  much  more
[17:34] 
[17:34] specific  so  like  how  people  are  feeling
[17:36] 
[17:36] what  are  the  specific  tax  tests  with
[17:39] 
[17:39] their  Jimmy  why  they're  doing  them
[17:41] 
[17:41] there's  all  kinds  of  questions  that  so  I
[17:44] 
[17:44] advocate  analytics  and  interviews  very
[17:46] 
[17:46] qualitative  research  as  complimentary  to
[17:49] 
[17:49] one  without  the  other  really  is  not  as
[17:52] 
[17:52] powerful  is  to  when  they're  combined  are
[17:55] 
[17:55] incredibly  powerful  articles  so  when  we
[17:58] 
[17:58] and  there  are  certain  types  of  questions
[18:01] 
[18:01] that  are  better  answered  with  analytics
[18:02] 
[18:02] and  we  can  check  the  questions  that  are
[18:04] 
[18:04] better  answers  to  interviews  so  what  a
[18:06] 
[18:06] skill  uux
[18:10] 
[18:10] when  to  employ  the  right  tactic  right  so
[18:12] 
[18:12] a  lot  of  is  and  the  answer  always  in
[18:15] 
[18:15] your  exercise  seems  to  be  like  well  it
[18:16] 
[18:16] depends  and  because  every  situation  is
[18:19] 
[18:19] slightly  different  depending  on  your
[18:21] 
[18:21] customer  base  and  question  you're
[18:22] 
[18:22] seeking  the  answer  if  you're  looking  to
[18:24] 
[18:24] be  more  explorative  if  you're  looking  to
[18:26] 
[18:26] be  more  validated  if  you're  seeking  to
[18:30] 
[18:30] innovate  or  the  other  word  is
[18:34] 
[18:34] incremental  so  if  you're  seeking  to
[18:36] 
[18:36] innovate  in  an  open  way  or  just  itching
[18:38] 
[18:38] to  incremental  improve  their  different
[18:41] 
[18:41] techniques  that  are  applied  fruit  right
[18:43] 
[18:43] I  mean  it's  something  that  I  was  always
[18:45] 
[18:45] curious  about  this  might  be  wrong  but
[18:49] 
[18:49] when  doing  research  I  mean  how  about  how
[18:50] 
[18:50] much  it's  about  usability  and  how  much
[18:53] 
[18:53] it's  about  creating  a  great  experience  I
[18:56] 
[18:56] mean  because  ya  know  say  what  do  you
[19:02] 
[19:02] think  I  was  talking  about  usability  is
[19:05] 
[19:05] this  something  that  actually  exists  for
[19:08] 
[19:08] a  long  time  I  think  it's  like  in  the
[19:10] 
[19:10] beginning  of  90s  oh  the  term  was
[19:13] 
[19:13] officially  for  define  and  you  know  it
[19:21] 
[19:21] can  be  understood  as  a  design  slimmer
[19:24] 
[19:24] design  process  even  but  also  we  can  use
[19:28] 
[19:28] your  ability  as  heuristics  to  evaluate
[19:31] 
[19:31] our  user
[19:33] 
[19:33] right  so  don't  work  like  that  you're
[19:35] 
[19:35] right  it's  more  like  a  mechanical  part
[19:37] 
[19:37] of  user  experience  right  right  I'm
[19:40] 
[19:40] probably  less  human  yeah  yeah  I  think
[19:44] 
[19:44] the  two  are  complementary  so  you  have
[19:45] 
[19:45] like  the  kind  of  heuristics  and  the
[19:47] 
[19:47] overall  because  human  biology  hasn't
[19:49] 
[19:49] change  event  mentions  I'm  going  to
[19:51] 
[19:51] anytime  soon  right  like  the  st.  causing
[19:53] 
[19:53] their  biases  that  we  have  and  emotional
[19:55] 
[19:55] reactions  or  intellectual  reactions
[19:58] 
[19:58] whatever  it  is  that  the  humans  a  direct
[20:00] 
[20:00] list  that  human  part  is  really  the  same
[20:03] 
[20:03] but  what's  changed  is  the  environment  in
[20:05] 
[20:05] which  we  dislike  the  technology  part  so
[20:08] 
[20:08] it's  adapting  that  so  that  I  think  here
[20:10] 
[20:10] is  success  complot  sistah  men  visiting
[20:12] 
[20:13] but  you  know  using  something  easily  and
[20:16] 
[20:16] being  able  to  get  your  task  in  at  the
[20:17] 
[20:17] end  of  the  day  actually  get  whatever  job
[20:19] 
[20:19] that  you  want  to  get  them  and  then  moves
[20:21] 
[20:21] like  a  huge  thing  right  now  it  is
[20:23] 
[20:23] talking  about  jump  students  product  size
[20:25] 
[20:25] this  is  really  new  tremendously  overlaps
[20:28] 
[20:28] with  us  we  have  tons  of  children  to
[20:30] 
[20:30] commuter  exactly  that  so  giving  allowing
[20:33] 
[20:33] the  customer  to  do  what  they  wanted  to
[20:35] 
[20:35] do  not  what  we  want  to  do  what  they  want
[20:38] 
[20:38] to  do  creates  the  experience  of  the
[20:39] 
[20:39] value  and  then  in  addition  we  have  the
[20:42] 
[20:42] emotional  component  and  how  that  feels
[20:44] 
[20:44] from  like  a  very  visual  side  so  it's  a
[20:48] 
[20:48] women  is  one  of  two  parts  work  really
[20:50] 
[20:50] well  I  think  that's  a  great  experience
[20:52] 
[20:52] like  it  functions  really  well  in  it
[20:54] 
[20:54] super  good  and  it  looks  really  nice  and
[20:57] 
[20:57] pleasing  to  you  and  that's  more  the
[20:59] 
[20:59] emotional  component  I  don't  think  is
[21:01] 
[21:01] really  important  I  really  can't
[21:03] 
[21:03] yeah  you  can  that  the  functionality  is
[21:09] 
[21:09] very  utilitarian  hmm  I  want  to  move  on
[21:15] 
[21:15] richer  you're  talking  about  how  you're
[21:17] 
[21:17] interacting  with  other  people  in  the
[21:18] 
[21:18] company  as  well  which  is  a  big  part  of
[21:20] 
[21:20] the  UX  role  I  mean  you're  not  solo
[21:22] 
[21:22] players  and  and  I  mean  I  wanted  to  ask
[21:24] 
[21:24] you  can  be  a  first  this  is  hard  to  get
[21:27] 
[21:27] like  buying  for  from  other  people  in
[21:29] 
[21:29] companies  it's  hard  to  convince  other
[21:31] 
[21:31] people  in  khipu  of  your  findings  I  mean
[21:35] 
[21:35] if  you  have  something  that's  you  know
[21:36] 
[21:36] conflicting  with  with  the  your
[21:38] 
[21:38] developers  thoughts  I  mean  how  do  you
[21:40] 
[21:40] convince  them  that  I  mean  what  you  found
[21:42] 
[21:42] is  the  right  thing  right  way  to  go  I
[21:44] 
[21:44] guess  unlock
[21:45] 
[21:45] enough  not  to  have  these  problems  but
[21:48] 
[21:48] always  after  every  research  after  every
[21:51] 
[21:51] every  interface  we  do  or  any  kind  of
[21:54] 
[21:54] research  I  buy  summary  and  action  action
[21:56] 
[21:56] items  and  you  know  there  are  reasons  in
[21:59] 
[21:59] those  documents  and  I  just  present  every
[22:02] 
[22:02] all  my  findings  to  them  and  if  there  is
[22:04] 
[22:04] anything  unclear  on  the  screen  that  they
[22:06] 
[22:06] see  that  they  have  to  develop  I  just
[22:07] 
[22:07] bring  up  these  reasons  and  it's  fairly
[22:09] 
[22:09] easy  people  try  is  a  pretty  much
[22:13] 
[22:13] I  wouldn't  say  design  mature  company
[22:14] 
[22:14] because  we  don't  have  a  huge  design  UX
[22:17] 
[22:17] team  but  definitely  this  is  something
[22:19] 
[22:19] that  we  will  follow  in  the  next  years  we
[22:23] 
[22:23] will  grow  our  design  team  and  we  put  a
[22:27] 
[22:27] strong  focus  on  the  line  hmm  how  it
[22:29] 
[22:29] stands  for  you  I  mean  you  also  talk
[22:31] 
[22:31] about  how  you're  bringing  engineers  into
[22:33] 
[22:33] interviews  how  you  are  trying  to  like
[22:35] 
[22:35] merge  everyone  into  the  same  process  but
[22:38] 
[22:38] it  is  has  been  times  when  it's  hard  to
[22:40] 
[22:40] commit  people  that's  what  you  found  is
[22:42] 
[22:42] truth  yeah  yeah  it  has  been  super
[22:47] 
[22:47] difficult  I  think  we're  lucky  as  well
[22:49] 
[22:49] but  I  think  what  critical  is  evolving  in
[22:52] 
[22:52] any  company  involving  people  from  the
[22:54] 
[22:54] beginning  letting  them  go  through  the
[22:56] 
[22:56] journey  with  you  and  having  experience
[22:59] 
[22:59] and  sitting  an  interview  and  seeing  what
[23:01] 
[23:01] happens  has  a  tremendous  impact  on
[23:03] 
[23:03] people  of  course  there's  you  know
[23:05] 
[23:05] sometimes  there's  people  that  have  their
[23:06] 
[23:06] own  opinion  and  you  know  they  feel  very
[23:08] 
[23:08] strongly  about  it  and  so  the  way  I've
[23:12] 
[23:12] gotten  around  that  is  essentially  to
[23:14] 
[23:14] bring  those  especially  those  individuals
[23:16] 
[23:16] and  really  as  possible  and  let  them  see
[23:19] 
[23:19] what  was  happening  because  the  point  of
[23:21] 
[23:21] view  of  being  in  when  you're  doing  it
[23:23] 
[23:23] agrees  is  not  to  supplement  or  to  to
[23:28] 
[23:28] supersede  to  users  opinions  your  own  or
[23:30] 
[23:30] to  get  what  you  want  is  to  get  what  they
[23:33] 
[23:33] want  and  there  is  little  difference  I
[23:35] 
[23:35] think  that  it's  easy  sometimes  lose
[23:37] 
[23:37] track  yeah  all  right  yeah  so  yeah
[23:40] 
[23:40] getting  people  involved  early  is  it  just
[23:43] 
[23:43] sort  of  it
[23:44] 
[23:44] I  mean  self  skills  are  needed  talking
[23:46] 
[23:46] with  the  users  those  are  the  death  same
[23:48] 
[23:48] self  skills  are  used  talking  with  other
[23:50] 
[23:50] people  in  the  company  I  think  so  I  think
[23:52] 
[23:52] where  does  difficulty  comes  in  maybe  it
[23:54] 
[23:54] some  day
[23:55] 
[23:55] companies  to  where  I've  been  past  the
[24:00] 
[24:00] business  side  that's  the  most  remove
[24:03] 
[24:03] around  the  customer  hi  can  sometimes
[24:06] 
[24:06] have  the  hardest  time  because  there  is
[24:08] 
[24:08] there's  this  balancing  act  that's
[24:10] 
[24:10] happening  between  business  needs  it  into
[24:12] 
[24:12] me  and  it  for  the  to  overlap  its
[24:14] 
[24:14] business  can  thrive  because  the  business
[24:16] 
[24:16] cannot  sustain  itself  than  sustain
[24:20] 
[24:20] itself  in  this  you  know  that  were  fire
[24:22] 
[24:22] but  its  customers  are  kitchens  the
[24:24] 
[24:24] leader  doing  what  they  need  to  do  if
[24:26] 
[24:26] they  want  to  do  then  they're  going  to  be
[24:29] 
[24:29] custard  so  it's  really  fine  going  to
[24:31] 
[24:31] overlap  and  what  it  sounds  really
[24:34] 
[24:34] effective  is  communicating  the  customers
[24:37] 
[24:37] needs  and  business  terms  always  tying
[24:40] 
[24:40] the  two  together  so  this  is  what  the
[24:42] 
[24:42] customer  wants  and  it's  going  to  serve  a
[24:44] 
[24:44] business  like  this  and  this  is  how  they
[24:46] 
[24:46] overlap  and  really  showing  that  over  and
[24:48] 
[24:48] that  wants  to  prove  hmm  no  no  and
[24:52] 
[24:52] everybody  has  their  things  right  like
[24:54] 
[24:54] you  can  get  attached  to  solution  you
[24:57] 
[24:57] know  it's  really  important  to  talk  about
[24:58] 
[24:58] huh  and  also  I  mean  tech  formers
[25:03] 
[25:03] apparently  become  say  now  150  people  I
[25:05] 
[25:05] mean  Apple  one  how  many  people  are
[25:06] 
[25:06] working  up  on  the  element  Center  which
[25:11] 
[25:11] is  in  Minsk  I  think  something  around
[25:13] 
[25:13] hundred  people  so  the  furniture  company
[25:15] 
[25:15] as  well  yeah  yeah  we  have  some  profiles
[25:17] 
[25:17] and  I  think  quite  a  quite  similar  to  to
[25:22] 
[25:22] your  cases  I  also  try  to  involve  people
[25:25] 
[25:25] to  take  participation  even  if  it's
[25:27] 
[25:27] remotely
[25:28] 
[25:28] I  asked  them  for  deserves  online  what's
[25:30] 
[25:30] going  on  run  interesting
[25:32] 
[25:32] some  see  it  on  your  own  and  just  take
[25:35] 
[25:35] the  nose  run  usually  when  you  do  submit
[25:37] 
[25:37] usability  testing  there's  always  a  note
[25:39] 
[25:39] taker  and  in  the  commitment  and  that's
[25:42] 
[25:42] exactly  what  I'm  asking  to  do  either  a
[25:44] 
[25:44] product  manager  or  a  developer  sometimes
[25:49] 
[25:49] I  mean  you  told  me  earlier  that  you  came
[25:53] 
[25:53] in  at  a  later  stage  in  Apple  on  and  that
[25:56] 
[25:56] they  they've  been  doing  their  things  I
[25:58] 
[25:58] used  to  reach  user  research  researcher
[26:01] 
[26:01] wise  and  without  the  UX  specialist  but
[26:05] 
[26:05] do  you  have  do  you  have  an  opinion  on
[26:08] 
[26:08] when  should  a  company  or  a  start-up  or
[26:10] 
[26:10] technology  company  hire  a  dedicated  use
[26:12] 
[26:12] person  well  depends  of  course  depending
[26:16] 
[26:16] on  what  depending  on  I  think  a  lot  of
[26:19] 
[26:19] factors  startups  they  they  do  hello  they
[26:22] 
[26:22] do  have  a  lot  of  problems
[26:24] 
[26:24] apart  from  UX  in  general  there  are  a  lot
[26:27] 
[26:27] of  challenges  first  of  all  to  cope  with
[26:30] 
[26:30] and  yeah  you  may  hire  a  UX  specialist  in
[26:36] 
[26:36] the  very  beginning  and  that  will  help
[26:37] 
[26:37] you  with  the  preliminary  research  and
[26:39] 
[26:39] into  phi  user  problems  user  needs
[26:41] 
[26:41] probably  build  your  product  around  that
[26:44] 
[26:44] but  there's  a  different  approach  which
[26:48] 
[26:48] can  also  work  lining  up  a  little  case
[26:50] 
[26:50] for  example  by  offering  they  had  a  nice
[26:53] 
[26:53] marketing  people  sales  people  and
[26:56] 
[26:56] business  intelligence  data  scientists  so
[27:00] 
[27:00] all  together  all  these  skills  make  a
[27:02] 
[27:02] good  mixture  together  and  they  found  a
[27:05] 
[27:05] way  to  build  products  that  went  well  so
[27:09] 
[27:09] possible  yeah  so  now  i'm  i'm  more  like  i
[27:12] 
[27:12] you  know  a  new  way  of  and  up  to  my  being
[27:15] 
[27:15] the  product  right  right  I  mean  Camille
[27:18] 
[27:18] you  you're  a  part  of  what  you  can  call
[27:20] 
[27:20] like  fairly  at  an  early  stage  startup
[27:23] 
[27:23] but  you  know  a  hundr  know  hundreds  of
[27:25] 
[27:25] people  and  I  mean  you're  the  first  UX
[27:27] 
[27:27] designer  right  yes  do  you  did  you  see
[27:31] 
[27:31] that  they  were  doing  things  different
[27:33] 
[27:33] than  before  you  arrived  are  you  doing
[27:35] 
[27:35] things  different  now  again  I  tried  to  be
[27:39] 
[27:39] a  voice  for  customer  before  that  it  was
[27:42] 
[27:42] a  product  owner  product  manager  who  did
[27:44] 
[27:44] to  do  these  things  so  they  were  doing
[27:48] 
[27:48] collies  UX  to  some  extent  but  there  was
[27:52] 
[27:52] no  no  dedicated  person  to  do  just  that
[27:54] 
[27:54] so  I  would  say  you  should  hire  as  early
[27:59] 
[27:59] as  possible  but  your  ex  isn't  cheap  UX
[28:02] 
[28:02] is  time  consuming  and  also  you  have  to
[28:05] 
[28:05] budget  for  it  right  to  recruit  people
[28:07] 
[28:07] and  then  pay  for  for  them  to  have
[28:09] 
[28:09] interviews  it's  these  metrics  is  that  -
[28:12] 
[28:12] it's  an  investment
[28:14] 
[28:14] and  is  the  kind  of  investment  that
[28:17] 
[28:17] reduces  risk  so  having  a  us  designer  on
[28:20] 
[28:20] board  really  helps  you  reduce  the  risk
[28:23] 
[28:23] of  totally  getting  it  wrong  yes  and  I
[28:27] 
[28:27] think  to  me  that's  super  valuable  right
[28:29] 
[28:29] like  especially  in  a  noose  or  as  a
[28:32] 
[28:32] start-up  tremendous  a  matter  is  not  just
[28:34] 
[28:34] whether  the  product  is  going  to  work
[28:36] 
[28:36] right  yes  and  so  any  way  that  you  can  do
[28:38] 
[28:38] that  so  I  look  at  it  as  something  that
[28:40] 
[28:40] can  begin  I  would  start  up  I  would  even
[28:47] 
[28:47] I  know  it's  a  bit  higher  somebody  senior
[28:52] 
[28:52] hire  somebody  to  spend  the  money  his
[28:54] 
[28:54] time  like  the  same  way  you  would  invest
[28:56] 
[28:56] in  development  and  we  have  to  say  kind
[28:59] 
[28:59] of  my  hiring  developers  that's  hiring
[29:01] 
[29:01] you're  in  so  important  yeah  there  are
[29:03] 
[29:03] two  sides  of  the  same  coin  right  like
[29:07] 
[29:07] and  the  stronger  structure  it's  like
[29:10] 
[29:10] having  a  two-footed  stool  versus  a  three
[29:13] 
[29:13] citizens  tool  right  yeah  so  because  you
[29:16] 
[29:16] worked  in  fairly  a  fair  amount  of  early
[29:18] 
[29:18] phase  start  with  yourself  right  and  you
[29:21] 
[29:21] came  in  at  the  early  stage  as  well  or
[29:23] 
[29:23] yes  there  was  some  of  my  clients
[29:26] 
[29:26] incentives  it  essentially  hired  you  know
[29:29] 
[29:29] kind  of  a  contract  on  a  contract  basis
[29:31] 
[29:31] and  that's  entirely  possible  -  right  and
[29:34] 
[29:34] if  you  can't  afford  to  have  fun  equal
[29:36] 
[29:36] time  for  every  day  higher  than  beginning
[29:39] 
[29:39] stages  to  set  the  course  of  some  extent
[29:41] 
[29:41] now  the  more  experienced  that  person  has
[29:43] 
[29:43] a  more  quickly  they're  going  to  be  able
[29:45] 
[29:45] to  you  know  give  you  the  right  advice
[29:48] 
[29:48] and  so  it's  like  spending  more  now  so
[29:52] 
[29:52] that  you  can  save  later  in  a  way  yeah
[29:56] 
[29:56] I'm  curious  you  worked  in  several  really
[29:59] 
[29:59] say  started  but  now  you're  working
[30:00] 
[30:00] inside  from  evolving  into  like  a  real
[30:03] 
[30:03] company  and  and  I  mean  talking  with  a
[30:06] 
[30:06] lot  of  people  in  the  beginning  and
[30:08] 
[30:08] you're  trying  to  kind  of  find  the  path
[30:10] 
[30:10] for  your  product  and  you're  getting  all
[30:12] 
[30:12] this  feedback  from  people  telling  you
[30:14] 
[30:14] that  would  be  great
[30:15] 
[30:15] if  you  did  this  that  would  be  amazing  I
[30:18] 
[30:18] mean  how  do  you  stand  this  is  for  all  of
[30:20] 
[30:20] you  but  how  do  you  stay  focused  on
[30:23] 
[30:23] near  vision  or  your  I  mean  your  yet  your
[30:25] 
[30:25] product  what  do  you  want  to  build  yeah
[30:27] 
[30:27] that's  where  it  becomes  an  art  form  at
[30:34] 
[30:34] the  end  of  the  day  I  think  with  in  the
[30:37] 
[30:37] early  stages  more  than  anything  that's
[30:39] 
[30:39] important  is  defining  the  problem  right
[30:42] 
[30:42] like  what's  the  real  problem  that  needs
[30:45] 
[30:45] to  be  solved  and  really  focusing  on  that
[30:48] 
[30:48] and  if  she  understands  technology  that
[30:52] 
[30:52] you're  trying  to  build  or  capabilities
[30:55] 
[30:55] that  you  have  then  you  can  apply  to  that
[30:58] 
[30:58] and  go  okay  we're  the  to  connect  like
[31:00] 
[31:00] this  is  the  problem  that  need  to  be
[31:02] 
[31:02] solved  this  is  the  kind  of  direction
[31:03] 
[31:03] that  we're  building  in  trying  to  find
[31:05] 
[31:05] little  Rob  it's  super  hard  I  mean  it's
[31:07] 
[31:07] easy  for  me  to  sit  here  and  say  this  but
[31:09] 
[31:09] in  a  moment  and  it's  not  a  magic  magic
[31:13] 
[31:13] one  of  the  things  that  you  see  way  will
[31:16] 
[31:16] wand  it  happens  right  like  it  doesn't
[31:19] 
[31:19] eliminate  risk  and  introduces  it  and
[31:23] 
[31:23] more  informed  it's  still  really  easy  to
[31:26] 
[31:26] fail  I  mean  how  many  startups  are  out
[31:28] 
[31:28] there  that  we've  never  heard  of  so  few
[31:32] 
[31:32] can  take  it  or  we  don't  talk  about  those
[31:34] 
[31:34] stories  it's  important  you've  done  right
[31:36] 
[31:36] and  not  only  that  actually  was  just  a  US
[31:40] 
[31:40] LX  and  just  patent  was  there  and  then
[31:43] 
[31:43] the  his  talk  was  that  failure  is  not
[31:46] 
[31:46] what  you  should  be  afraid  of  it's  that
[31:49] 
[31:49] kind  of  in  between  like  it's  neither
[31:52] 
[31:52] right  nor  wrong  kind  of  like  it's  not
[31:56] 
[31:56] terrible  but  it's  not  good  either  that
[31:58] 
[31:58] kind  of  like  dead  them  in  the  middle
[32:00] 
[32:00] where  it's  like  something's  happening
[32:02] 
[32:02] but  we  don't  know  what  yeah  so  it's  not
[32:04] 
[32:04] failure  that  we  should  really  be  afraid
[32:06] 
[32:06] of  it  kind  of  restoring  I  guess  yeah  we
[32:11] 
[32:11] should  you  feeling  is  good  because  it
[32:16] 
[32:16] tells  you  what  you're  really  doing  wrong
[32:17] 
[32:17] and  gives  you  a  lot  more  information
[32:19] 
[32:19] then  like  kind  of  sort  of  getting  it  and
[32:22] 
[32:22] I  think  that  so  so  it  is  in  an  effort  to
[32:25] 
[32:25] eliminate  that  I  think  that's  a  problem
[32:28] 
[32:28] in  the  beginning  and  not  solving  for  a
[32:31] 
[32:31] problem  until  you  know  with  the  real
[32:33] 
[32:33] problem  in  sort  of  like  that  knowing  how
[32:36] 
[32:36] long  to  stay  there  yeah  I  knew  you
[32:38] 
[32:38] talked  about  also  in  regard  to  this
[32:40] 
[32:40] understanding  Nexus  technology  because  I
[32:44] 
[32:44] wondered  I  mean  how  how  develop  do  you
[32:47] 
[32:47] need  to  be  at  the  quarter  and  Camille
[32:50] 
[32:50] and  I  know  that  you  do  so
[32:52] 
[32:52] developments  in  coding  but  I  mean  how
[32:54] 
[32:54] advanced  of  a  code  or  do  you  need  to  be
[32:57] 
[32:57] developed  or  do  you  need  to  be  to  work
[32:59] 
[32:59] you  know  my  patient  class  every  year
[33:00] 
[33:00] designer  UX  in  general  is  a  quite
[33:05] 
[33:05] interesting  field  because  you  can  have
[33:06] 
[33:06] many  backgrounds  and  I  happen  to  have
[33:08] 
[33:08] some  development  background  but  it  was  a
[33:10] 
[33:10] long  time  ago
[33:12] 
[33:12] I  understand  how  programming  works  and
[33:14] 
[33:14] that  helps  me  understand  constraints  at
[33:16] 
[33:16] developer  project  to  me  you  don't  have
[33:19] 
[33:19] to  be  color  at  all  but  in  a  start-up  the
[33:23] 
[33:23] more  Skills  you  have  the  better  of  you
[33:25] 
[33:25] are  so  I  would  say  coding  is  a  is  a  good
[33:32] 
[33:32] complement  complementary  skill  I  do
[33:35] 
[33:35] coding  only  because  sometimes  there  is  a
[33:39] 
[33:39] development  team  works  hard  on  the
[33:41] 
[33:41] product  heavy  on  the  product  I  use  the
[33:43] 
[33:43] small  things  yeah  just  as  a  night  soon
[33:47] 
[33:47] to  my  team  anyways  it's  at  the  same
[33:49] 
[33:49] point  of  university  I  do  you  think  your
[33:51] 
[33:51] sign  is  shoot  code  or  do  you  think  it's
[33:54] 
[33:54] important  the  moms  say  let's  see  that's
[33:58] 
[33:58] one  different  perspective  they're
[33:59] 
[33:59] different  types  of  developers  Universal
[34:01] 
[34:01] with  face  we're  having  for  example  Apple
[34:05] 
[34:05] we  have  matrix  about  developing  but  we
[34:09] 
[34:09] also  have  machine  learning  deep  learning
[34:10] 
[34:10] computing  which  is  a  little  bit  advanced
[34:13] 
[34:13] and  it's  a  little  bit  more  complex  than
[34:16] 
[34:16] just  a  usual  second  one  and  these  people
[34:21] 
[34:21] are  creating  amazing  things  that  users
[34:25] 
[34:25] do  already  feel  that  it's  working  they
[34:28] 
[34:28] feel  that  interfaces  become  more  and
[34:30] 
[34:30] more  smart  now  and  they  require  more  and
[34:33] 
[34:33] more  reason  to  face  it  and  I'm  speaking
[34:36] 
[34:36] to  users  like  once  and  week  one  too
[34:39] 
[34:39] apart  from  you  know  solving  our  daily
[34:42] 
[34:42] problems  from  a  catch-all  project  I  also
[34:44] 
[34:44] see  them  demanding  more  and  more  every
[34:47] 
[34:47] day  about  that  about  the  way  interface
[34:51] 
[34:51] should  be  now  in  the  future  so  I  guess
[34:54] 
[34:54] going  forward  maybe  becomes  more  and
[34:56] 
[34:56] more  important  or  yeah  it  becomes  one
[34:59] 
[34:59] more  but  probably  not  having  the  skills
[35:02] 
[35:02] of  a  developer  but  just  understand  what
[35:04] 
[35:04] they're  doing  and  understand  the
[35:06] 
[35:06] limitations  I  mean  do  you  do  go  to
[35:11] 
[35:11] yourself  you  know  I  went  to  a  10-week
[35:14] 
[35:14] dev  bootcamp  Ruby  on  Rails  training
[35:18] 
[35:18] right  man  is  so  hard  but  I  think  Canosa
[35:28] 
[35:28] is  really  depend  on  the  environment  I'm
[35:32] 
[35:32] going  to  start  up  having  being  a  really
[35:34] 
[35:34] strong  generalist  will  be  really  helpful
[35:36] 
[35:36] at  a  big  company  where  you  have  these
[35:39] 
[35:39] very  very  narrow  roles  goes  deep  into
[35:42] 
[35:42] one  subject  it's  more  useful  to  really
[35:45] 
[35:45] get  expert  it's  really  hard  to  be  good
[35:47] 
[35:47] at  everything  and  by  the  time  somebody
[35:51] 
[35:51] is  good  at  everything  usually  you  know
[35:54] 
[35:54] it  takes  two  mutants  decades  right  like
[35:56] 
[35:56] you'd  have  to  and  then  think  they're
[35:58] 
[35:58] changing  so  much  with  the  line  of
[36:01] 
[36:01] almonds  and  shift  all  the  time  then  it's
[36:03] 
[36:03] how  you're  not  doing  one  job  for  a  while
[36:05] 
[36:05] what  stays  is  used  as  overall  concepts
[36:09] 
[36:09] and  understanding  where  the  pitfalls
[36:10] 
[36:10] might  be  but  I  don't  know  if  to  some
[36:12] 
[36:13] extent  you  know  sometimes  diction  also
[36:15] 
[36:15] be  good  enough  to  not  to  have  any  of
[36:17] 
[36:17] that  background  because  it's  then  you're
[36:19] 
[36:19] now  limit  or  you're  less  limited  maybe
[36:20] 
[36:20] you  know  I  like  to  out  it's  that  story
[36:25] 
[36:25] of  the  bumblebee  like  the  reason  it
[36:26] 
[36:26] applies  because  nobody's  golden  can't
[36:28] 
[36:28] there's  so  not  your  anchor  and  look  at  a
[36:31] 
[36:31] bumblebee  like  how  does  that  happening
[36:33] 
[36:33] but  so  it's  sometimes  it's  good  to  have
[36:37] 
[36:37] that  naive  friend  that's  cool  you're
[36:41] 
[36:41] talking  about  how  the  you  know  anything
[36:43] 
[36:43] so  fast  and  it's  hard  to  keep  updated
[36:45] 
[36:45] and  I'm  guess  that's  the  same  for  us  I
[36:47] 
[36:47] mean  UX  is  evolving  as  well  you  expiry
[36:49] 
[36:49] search  as  well  it's  evolving
[36:51] 
[36:51] and  I  wanted  to  here  with  you  guys  that
[36:53] 
[36:53] are  working  with  this  every  day  I  mean
[36:54] 
[36:54] what's  you  acting  2010  and  things
[36:57] 
[36:57] probably  not  what  you  what  what's  you
[36:59] 
[36:59] know  a  couple  years  ago  coming  in  I  mean
[37:03] 
[37:03] are  you  are  you  working  in  the  same  way
[37:05] 
[37:05] as  you  did  a  couple  years  ago  are  you
[37:07] 
[37:07] seeing  some  trends  changing  I  guess
[37:11] 
[37:11] while  working  the  same  or  not  you  adapt
[37:14] 
[37:14] to  environmental  projects  so  not  really
[37:17] 
[37:17] aware  of  the  one  working  very  much
[37:20] 
[37:20] different  I  always  stay  true  to  the
[37:22] 
[37:22] problem  that  endured  by  us  all  but  I
[37:25] 
[37:25] think  in  terms  of  trends  for  2017  or
[37:27] 
[37:27] maybe  even  20  18  19  I  I  was  getting  to
[37:30] 
[37:30] anticipatory  design  and  I  explained  in
[37:34] 
[37:34] that  Wow  I  it  has  to  do  something  with
[37:38] 
[37:38] with  a  I  backed  design  this  is  the
[37:44] 
[37:44] interface  changes  as  user  uses  it  and
[37:47] 
[37:47] and  it  that's  fed  to  it  by  if  I  see  at
[37:50] 
[37:50] which  is  sorry  that's  fed  to  it  by
[37:53] 
[37:53] artificial  intelligence  and  that's  more
[37:57] 
[37:57] as  overall  concept  and  not  an  expert  so
[37:58] 
[37:58] about  that  so  I'm  already  gonna  know
[38:01] 
[38:01] know  in  detail  but  that  mean  it's  more
[38:03] 
[38:03] or  less  it  right  I  know  you  guys  are
[38:05] 
[38:05] working  with  conversational  interfaces
[38:07] 
[38:07] and  some  AI  powered  stop  on  me  we're
[38:10] 
[38:10] doing  really  can't  like  that  the  right
[38:13] 
[38:13] direction  go  in  it  so  as  an  industry  as
[38:17] 
[38:17] a  as  a  job  I  don't  think  you  have
[38:21] 
[38:21] changed  time  I  think  that  develop  that
[38:26] 
[38:26] changed  a  lot  more  in  the  sense  of  like
[38:27] 
[38:27] language  is  constantly  evolving  this  is
[38:29] 
[38:29] good  this  is  great  decisions  getting
[38:31] 
[38:31] better  like  there's  the  technologies
[38:32] 
[38:32] really  changing  quite  a  bit  in  UX  truly
[38:36] 
[38:36] creative  problem-solving  from  beginning
[38:38] 
[38:38] right  like  it's  not  so  fluid  design
[38:44] 
[38:44] trends  are  fluid  with  the  like  with
[38:46] 
[38:46] popular  kind  of  you  know  colors  what
[38:48] 
[38:48] kind  of  interactions  animations  things
[38:50] 
[38:50] like  that  or  of  all  these  are  quickly  if
[38:52] 
[38:52] it's  fundamental  like  research  and  UX
[38:55] 
[38:55] design  many  think  I  think  it's  evolving
[38:57] 
[38:58] quickly  but  to
[39:01] 
[39:01] kind  of  anticipatory  design  and  using  AI
[39:04] 
[39:04] to  essentially  make  the  interface  more
[39:06] 
[39:06] intelligent  response  the  person  where
[39:08] 
[39:08] they're  working  in  the  moment  so  that  it
[39:10] 
[39:10] can  it's  predicting  what  they  might  do
[39:13] 
[39:13] stand  right  so  a  typo  me  a  conversation
[39:16] 
[39:16] what  a  conversational  means  I  think  that
[39:19] 
[39:19] we're  kind  of  defining  that  right  like
[39:22] 
[39:22] where  does  it  mean  to  our  customers  are
[39:25] 
[39:25] we  going  to  have  the  same  customers
[39:26] 
[39:26] today  as  we  have  in  two  years  probably
[39:29] 
[39:29] might  not  be  the  same  things  like  us  are
[39:32] 
[39:32] days  men  would  have  conversation
[39:34] 
[39:34] designing  to  them  so  those  are  the
[39:35] 
[39:35] questions  are  trying  to  answer  but  I
[39:38] 
[39:38] think  no  no  no  I  mean  I  feel  like  you're
[39:45] 
[39:45] your  own  board  the  same  thing  zone  we  do
[39:47] 
[39:47] not  thought  that  you're  you're  teaching
[39:49] 
[39:49] the  UX  you  Xer  of  the  future  as  iron
[39:51] 
[39:51] hack  I  mean  are  you  are  you  teaching
[39:53] 
[39:53] them  the  latest  trends  or  I  mean  what
[39:55] 
[39:55] what  do  you  think  our  2017  we're  giving
[39:59] 
[39:59] them  the  basics  of  what  are  the  trends
[40:00] 
[40:00] in  society  what  are  the  trends  in
[40:02] 
[40:02] technology  for  us  we're  not  really  you
[40:06] 
[40:06] know  it's  really  hard  to  predict  what  we
[40:10] 
[40:10] totally  all  understand  if  that  things
[40:11] 
[40:11] are  going  to  go  really  fast  really
[40:14] 
[40:14] really  fast  and  as  I  said  before
[40:16] 
[40:16] during  my  research  studies  I  can  see
[40:19] 
[40:19] that  users  are  becoming  more  and  more
[40:21] 
[40:21] demanding  in  terms  of  the  quality  of
[40:23] 
[40:23] these  interfaces  and  being  yet
[40:27] 
[40:27] especially  if  you  do  test  with  visual
[40:31] 
[40:31] native  people  that  were  born  like  after
[40:34] 
[40:34] a  middle  of  19th  right  they  got  used  to
[40:38] 
[40:38] solve  their  problems  with  digital
[40:39] 
[40:39] solutions  already  so  they  expect  warm
[40:43] 
[40:43] and  for  example  our  generation  we're
[40:45] 
[40:45] still  can  use  the  paper  for  something
[40:47] 
[40:47] yes  and  the  younger  like  my  nephew  for
[40:51] 
[40:51] example  when  he  was  not  in  10  but  when
[40:55] 
[40:55] you  were  five  he  expected  he  had  seen
[41:00] 
[41:00] the  comics  like  an  elephant  or  something
[41:04] 
[41:04] but  he  also  saw  an  iPad  already  and  he
[41:07] 
[41:07] was  like  you  want  to  send  this  one  to  be
[41:09] 
[41:09] inlay  I've  had  and  that's  exactly  what
[41:11] 
[41:11] he's  expecting  because  that's  what
[41:15] 
[41:15] and  his  mental  ones  already  so  no  one
[41:19] 
[41:19] section  it  ain't  good  that's  the  way
[41:21] 
[41:21] it's  going  to  change  a  little  bit  we
[41:24] 
[41:24] will  have  to  develop  new  principles  of
[41:26] 
[41:26] evaluating  a  user  experience  I  think
[41:30] 
[41:30] generally  let's  say  time  between  users
[41:37] 
[41:37] and  computers  will  reduce  time  in  the
[41:43] 
[41:43] future  the  going  interaction  was  going
[41:46] 
[41:46] to  be  essentially  less  interaction
[41:48] 
[41:48] that's  great  yeah  yeah  yeah  the  thing
[41:52] 
[41:52] that  we  can  do  for  people  and  that's
[41:54] 
[41:54] even  something  now  that  I  think  about
[41:56] 
[41:56] all  the  time  I  calculate  me  essentially
[41:58] 
[41:58] agreeing  with  this  tent  is  there
[41:59] 
[41:59] something  you  can  do  for  users  that  they
[42:01] 
[42:01] don't  have  to  do  like  we  can  thanks  for
[42:03] 
[42:03] them  and  finding  all  those  little  things
[42:05] 
[42:05] to  reduce  cognitive  load  so  that  it
[42:07] 
[42:08] seemed  like  the  computer  knows  what  you
[42:10] 
[42:10] want
[42:10] 
[42:10] it  doesn't  really  arrive  but  it's  going
[42:12] 
[42:12] to  predict  it  and  maybe  there  will
[42:14] 
[42:14] eventually  be  some  kind  of  intelligent
[42:17] 
[42:17] enough  a  eye  that  can  support  things
[42:21] 
[42:21] every  time  descent  maybe  you're  taking
[42:23] 
[42:23] away  rather  than  having  more  interaction
[42:25] 
[42:25] and  then  switching  some  of  the
[42:28] 
[42:28] interaction  to  voice  things  that  can  be
[42:31] 
[42:31] done  with  voice  easier  than  interface
[42:32] 
[42:32] and  then  there's  of  course  things  that
[42:34] 
[42:34] can  be  done  in  your  pen  interface  rather
[42:35] 
[42:35] than  a  voice  like  an  ugly  voices  like
[42:37] 
[42:37] everything's  going  to  be  with  probably
[42:39] 
[42:39] not  realistic  yeah  taking  a  screen  away
[42:44] 
[42:44] so  later  what  does  the  next  reality  look
[42:46] 
[42:46] like  instead  of  having  the  screen  with
[42:51] 
[42:51] the  information  is  there  any  this
[42:52] 
[42:52] problem  it's  all  their  problems  with
[42:54] 
[42:54] that  too  right  you  need  to  be  able  to
[42:58] 
[42:58] vary  around  the  world  and  not  be  too
[43:00] 
[43:00] distracted  at  the  same  time  but  we'll
[43:03] 
[43:03] see  what  other  this  area  plating  I  think
[43:05] 
[43:05] there's  a  lot  of  things  yeah  I  think
[43:09] 
[43:09] sexology  for  giving  you  some  insights
[43:11] 
[43:11] into  the  future  of  of  UX  and  our  digital
[43:15] 
[43:15] products  so  I  probably  have  like  20  more
[43:17] 
[43:17] questions  I  would  like  to  ask  you  guys
[43:20] 
[43:20] get  seminary  or
[43:21] 
[43:21] you're  sharing  a  lot  of  interesting
[43:23] 
[43:23] experience  with  us  but  at  some  point  you
[43:24] 
[43:24] have  to  say  stuff  but  I  just  want  to  say
[43:28] 
[43:28] Camila  Brianna  and  also  you  know  thank
[43:30] 
[43:30] you  so  much  for  coming  thank  you  so  much
[43:32] 
[43:32] for  for  for  sharing
[43:36] 
[43:36] [Music]