Undressing a CTO, and how to become one - Interviewing three experienced CTO's — vídeo y transcripción

[00:02] [Music]
[00:14] 
[00:14] hello  and  welcome  to  the  ethnic  podcast
[00:16] 
[00:16] today  we  have  three  very  talented  CEOs
[00:19] 
[00:19] with  us  first  Roger  campus  from  camel
[00:22] 
[00:22] ooh  we  also  have  Albert  balanc  from
[00:25] 
[00:25] quipu  and  we  also  have  power  ramon
[00:28] 
[00:28] arabia  the  former  city  of  red  booth  and
[00:30] 
[00:30] the  current  CTO  of  factorial  so  welcome
[00:35] 
[00:35] all  of  you  thank  you  my  name  today  we
[00:38] 
[00:38] want  to  try  to  shed  some  light  on  some
[00:40] 
[00:40] questions  concerning  the  CTO  role  many
[00:43] 
[00:43] people  are  wondering  you  know  what  are
[00:46] 
[00:46] you  guys  doing  in  your  work  and  how  to
[00:48] 
[00:48] become  one  I  actually  when  I  wrote  you
[00:50] 
[00:50] the  mail  inviting  you  to  this  podcast  I
[00:53] 
[00:53] wrote  I  think  the  title  was  undressing
[00:56] 
[00:56] CTO  and  how  to  become  one  and  we  won't
[01:00] 
[01:00] undress  you  but  I  was  a  bit
[01:02] 
[01:02] uncomfortable  with  the  title
[01:04] 
[01:04] I'm  sorry  I'm  sorry  about  that  but  it
[01:07] 
[01:07] will  be  will  be  very  low-key  all  clothes
[01:09] 
[01:09] will  be  remaining  on  but  we  will  try  to
[01:13] 
[01:13] you  know  get  under  your  skin  and
[01:16] 
[01:16] try  to
[01:17] 
[01:17] understand  you  know  how  to  become  a  CTO
[01:20] 
[01:20] and  then  how  you  became  one  so  I  think
[01:23] 
[01:23] we  can  start  in  in  one  end  and  we  have
[01:25] 
[01:25] you  al  bad
[01:26] 
[01:26] you've  been  the  CTO  of  khipu  how  long  I
[01:30] 
[01:30] fit  well  since  we  started  like  three
[01:32] 
[01:33] years  ago  three  games  is  over  three
[01:34] 
[01:35] years  ago  yeah  and  so  you  just  stepped
[01:37] 
[01:37] right  into  the  CTO  role  from  the
[01:40] 
[01:40] beginning  ah  not  really  when  I  well
[01:43] 
[01:43] after  I  was  studying  I  was  staying
[01:45] 
[01:45] abroad  for  a  year  and  a  half  and  I  got
[01:48] 
[01:48] back  to  to  Spain  and  I  was  wondering
[01:51] 
[01:51] what  to  do  and  I  started  Technic  as  a
[01:55] 
[01:55] developer  actually  a
[01:58] 
[01:58] Raji  a  CTO  and  after  some  months  Kamel
[02:02] 
[02:02] moon  started  out  like  really  big  and
[02:05] 
[02:05] both  Karen  and  Burnett  founders  ethnic
[02:09] 
[02:09] when  to  when  to  come  alone  and  I  started
[02:13] 
[02:13] as  CEO  of  ethnic  and  then
[02:17] 
[02:17] after  I  would  say  two  years  or  yeah  two
[02:22] 
[02:22] years  and  a  half  maybe  I  started  people
[02:26] 
[02:26] from  within  evening  hmm  and  how  was  it
[02:30] 
[02:30] going  from  being  a  developer  to  becoming
[02:32] 
[02:32] a  CTO  did  your  role  change  um  well  as
[02:38] 
[02:38] it  was  like  going  from  one  developer  to
[02:42] 
[02:42] to  developers  and  three  and  so  on  it  was
[02:45] 
[02:45] not  that  big  of  a  change  it's  more  a
[02:47] 
[02:47] gradual  one  so
[02:49] 
[02:50] yeah
[02:51] 
[02:51] responsibilities  grow  and  you  take  care
[02:54] 
[02:54] of  more  and  more  things  maybe  you  start
[02:57] 
[02:57] not  coding  that  much  but  it's  not  that
[03:01] 
[03:01] big  of  a  change  so  pow  you  you  you
[03:06] 
[03:06] recently  started  a  new  company  or  Disney
[03:08] 
[03:08] called  factorial  yeah  guess  we  will  hear
[03:10] 
[03:10] about  more  and  more  of  that  later  on
[03:13] 
[03:13] but  you're  the  former  CEO  of  red  boots
[03:18] 
[03:18] a  great  company  here  in  Barcelona  and
[03:20] 
[03:20] also  in  the  US  tell  me  a  bit  about  how
[03:22] 
[03:22] you  became  a  CTO  at  read  booth  yeah  so  I
[03:25] 
[03:25] I  was  initially  just  working  there
[03:29] 
[03:29] actually  I  was  living  on  the  culture  I
[03:32] 
[03:32] was  living  on  the  coverage  of  the
[03:34] 
[03:34] founders  house  in  San  Francisco  and  I
[03:37] 
[03:37] was  coding  for  that  couch  that  was  my
[03:39] 
[03:39] salary  back  then  so  I  was  not  the  most
[03:41] 
[03:41] expensive  developer  and  then  eventually
[03:44] 
[03:44] it  didn't  work  that  well  for  me  in  San
[03:47] 
[03:47] Francisco  and  I  decided  to  go  back  so  I
[03:49] 
[03:49] decided  to  keep  working  for  booth  and
[03:51] 
[03:51] eventually  Joe  Lee  who  was  the  city  of
[03:54] 
[03:54] like  then  he  decided  to  move  on  with
[03:57] 
[03:57] another  project  of  his  own  and  then  I
[04:00] 
[04:00] was  finally  promoted  from  developer  to  C
[04:02] 
[04:02] do  so  I  think  I  was  quite  lucky
[04:05] 
[04:05] but  understand  time  I  also  needed  teams
[04:08] 
[04:08] before  and  for  very  similar  reasons  the
[04:11] 
[04:11] first  tech  leads  left  so  I'm  always  in
[04:15] 
[04:15] the  situation  that  somehow  I  managed  to
[04:17] 
[04:17] find  myself  on  the  filling  the  gap  so
[04:21] 
[04:21] alright  so  you're  the  you're  the  guy
[04:23] 
[04:23] that's  filling  the  gap  yes  I'm  the  field
[04:24] 
[04:24] I  mean  this  time  this  time  at  least  I
[04:26] 
[04:26] started  as  a  CTO  is
[04:28] 
[04:28] it's  a  bit  different  now  all  right  all
[04:31] 
[04:31] right  and  last  not  least  say  you've  been
[04:35] 
[04:35] the  CTO  of  Cameroon  a  while  now  I  can
[04:37] 
[04:37] tell  us  a  bit  about  you  you're  also  a
[04:39] 
[04:39] founding  member  of  Cameroon  can  you  tell
[04:40] 
[04:40] me  a  bit  about  how  your  key  role  has
[04:43] 
[04:43] yeah  you  know  change  over  time  but  it
[04:46] 
[04:46] came  very  naturally  because  I  was  in  the
[04:49] 
[04:49] company  from  the  beginning
[04:51] 
[04:51] the  first  we  found  a  technique  with  a
[04:54] 
[04:54] partner  whisper  not  because  we  both  were
[04:58] 
[04:58] in  the  same  university  studying  web
[05:01] 
[05:01] technologies  and
[05:04] 
[05:04] condemned  we  decided  to  form  the  company
[05:06] 
[05:06] and  I  took  responsibility  of  the
[05:09] 
[05:09] technical  part  because  that's  what  I
[05:11] 
[05:11] like  the  most  and
[05:13] 
[05:13] since  there  was  no  one  else  in  the
[05:15] 
[05:15] company  it  was  the  CTO  because  I  watched
[05:18] 
[05:18] the  first  developer  and
[05:19] 
[05:19] I  never  wanted  to  become  a  city  or
[05:23] 
[05:23] goals  per  se  I  just  wanted  to  to  start
[05:27] 
[05:27] the  company  to  learn  new  things  and
[05:30] 
[05:30] intervening  I  was  a  developer  and
[05:33] 
[05:33] it's  always  the  same  you  have  a  set  of
[05:35] 
[05:35] goals  of  objectives  to  accomplish  and
[05:39] 
[05:39] you  keep  accomplishing  them  and  when  the
[05:42] 
[05:42] company  is  small  and  you  have  only  2  3  5
[05:46] 
[05:46] persons  you  are  the  one  that  develops
[05:48] 
[05:48] and  does  everything  as  a  company  grows
[05:51] 
[05:51] and  more  people  that  involve  you  have
[05:53] 
[05:53] more  developers  you  have  the  same
[05:55] 
[05:55] activities  but  the  ways  and  tactics  you
[05:57] 
[05:57] need  to  manage  to  treat  that  goal  that's
[06:01] 
[06:01] what  changes  and  overtime  hmm  yeah  I  was
[06:04] 
[06:04] the  city  of  ethnic  and  then  when  we  met
[06:08] 
[06:08] very  real  and  we  decided  to  start  a
[06:11] 
[06:11] camel  owned  a  new  company  and  I  was  then
[06:15] 
[06:15] the  city  of  Cumberland  and  ever  become
[06:17] 
[06:17] the  city  of  in  niku  filling  the  cabbage
[06:20] 
[06:20] pond  yeah
[06:22] 
[06:22] so  you  like  initially  you  didn't  want  to
[06:25] 
[06:25] become  a  city  or  per  se  and  now  you're
[06:28] 
[06:28] the  city  of  a  pretty  big  group  of
[06:30] 
[06:30] developers  that's  contained  continuously
[06:32] 
[06:32] growing  you  know  every  month  how  is  that
[06:36] 
[06:36] difficult  to  grow  them  that  we  expect  a
[06:38] 
[06:38] little  bit  yes  yeah  it's  very  difficult
[06:40] 
[06:40] to  hire  good  developers  all  right  right
[06:43] 
[06:43] and
[06:44] 
[06:44] something  that  I've  been  wondering  at
[06:47] 
[06:47] least  because  a  CTO  you  know  you're  the
[06:49] 
[06:49] chief  of  the  all  the  technical  parts
[06:51] 
[06:51] moving  in  the  company  but  but  still
[06:53] 
[06:53] you're  a  leader  so  like  your  daily  task
[06:57] 
[06:57] does  it  is  it  a  lot  of  you  know  coding
[07:01] 
[07:01] still  or  or  is  it  just  administrative  HR
[07:04] 
[07:04] what  do  you  say  pal  you  being  the  head
[07:06] 
[07:06] of  a  big  team  I  mean  right  now  it's  a
[07:09] 
[07:09] lot  of  coding  because  I  only  have  to
[07:11] 
[07:11] manage  myself  yeah  that's  pretty  clear
[07:12] 
[07:12] onion
[07:13] 
[07:13] but  it  depends  on  on  the  stage  so  I
[07:17] 
[07:17] think  as  you  grow  you  have  to  take  it
[07:19] 
[07:19] more  more  time  to  the  human  side  of
[07:23] 
[07:23] being  a  CEO  but  also  the  different
[07:25] 
[07:25] people  have  different  skills  I  mean
[07:27] 
[07:27] different  styles  as  well  these  people
[07:29] 
[07:29] they  prefer  to  keep  coding  a  lot  these
[07:31] 
[07:31] people  that  get  totally  not  involved
[07:34] 
[07:34] with  coding  and  they  get  more  involved
[07:37] 
[07:37] with  management  and  so  on  I  I  like  to
[07:40] 
[07:40] keep  a  little  bit  of  everything  so  I
[07:42] 
[07:42] like  to  keep  coding  and  try  to
[07:44] 
[07:44] understand  what's  being  done  and  how
[07:46] 
[07:46] it's  being  done  but  I  also  like  to
[07:49] 
[07:49] to  help  a  lot  the  team  on  the  human  side
[07:52] 
[07:52] to  do  a  lot  of  one-on-ones  to  to  also
[07:55] 
[07:55] try  to  understand  as  much  as  possible
[07:57] 
[07:57] what  management  requires  from  the
[07:59] 
[07:59] development  team  and  so  on  I  read  I  read
[08:01] 
[08:01] somewhere  you're  wrote  in  the  red  booth
[08:04] 
[08:04] blog  that  a  you  you  should  do  you  think
[08:07] 
[08:07] it's  more  important  to  focus  on  the  team
[08:09] 
[08:09] even  more  than  your  product  itself  yeah
[08:12] 
[08:12] yeah  I  think  so  I  mean  I  would  that  I
[08:15] 
[08:15] think  two  years  ago  I  may  have  changed  a
[08:18] 
[08:18] little  bit  my  way  of  thinking  but  one
[08:20] 
[08:20] thing  that  keeps  being  true  is  that
[08:23] 
[08:23] depending  on  the  company  with  most  of
[08:25] 
[08:25] the  times  your  development  team  may  be
[08:28] 
[08:28] the  biggest  asset  so  if  someone  will
[08:32] 
[08:32] ever  acquire  a  company  your  technical
[08:35] 
[08:35] team  will  with  so  much  it's  gonna  affect
[08:37] 
[08:37] so  much  evaluation  that  it's  probably
[08:39] 
[08:39] one  of  the  biggest  assets  you  can  invest
[08:41] 
[08:41] on  sometimes  even  more  than  the  product
[08:43] 
[08:43] it  depends  on  the  company  top  hmm  did
[08:45] 
[08:45] you  agree  yeah  yeah  yeah  yeah  oh  and
[08:49] 
[08:49] thank  you  as  well  yeah  it's  true  I  mean
[08:52] 
[08:52] coding  the  most  important  thing  is  that
[08:55] 
[08:55] it  all  depends  on  the  stage  of  the
[08:57] 
[08:57] company  when  you  start  you  have  to  code
[08:59] 
[08:59] everything  and  right  now  in  my  current
[09:02] 
[09:02] situation  coding  is  not  my  most  critical
[09:05] 
[09:05] thing  to  do  but  I  keep  doing  it  to  keep
[09:08] 
[09:08] my  mental  sanity  and  also  as  a  way  to
[09:12] 
[09:12] keep  being  involved  in  the  code  itself
[09:15] 
[09:15] because  many  times  it's  hard  to  keep
[09:17] 
[09:17] track  of  everything  that  everyone
[09:19] 
[09:19] develops  not  at  a  feature  level  but  more
[09:21] 
[09:21] than  technical  point  of  Bill  I  mean
[09:25] 
[09:25] maybe  someone  doing  one  feature
[09:27] 
[09:27] introduces  a  new
[09:29] 
[09:29] generic  library  or  a  new  generic  way  of
[09:32] 
[09:32] do  something  and  want  to  knowing  this
[09:35] 
[09:35] kind  of  things  hmm  but  the  most
[09:38] 
[09:38] important  thing  right  now  for  me  is
[09:39] 
[09:39] talking  with  people  either  in  meetings
[09:42] 
[09:42] or  informal  chats  or  emails  or  slack
[09:46] 
[09:46] correct  whatever  it  is
[09:49] 
[09:49] but  it's  about  talking  with  people  in
[09:51] 
[09:51] with  everyone  I  mean  in  my  team  is  about
[09:57] 
[09:57] passing  the  vision  above  the  software
[09:59] 
[09:59] because  in  the  beginning  you  go  with
[10:01] 
[10:01] yourself  everything  so  you  need  to  you
[10:04] 
[10:04] don't  need  to  respond  to  anyone  else
[10:07] 
[10:07] but  when  more  people  are  involve  and
[10:10] 
[10:10] other  technical  persons  are  working  on
[10:13] 
[10:13] your  project  it's  no  longer  your  project
[10:16] 
[10:16] alone  it's  from  everyone  now  and  then  if
[10:20] 
[10:20] you  want  to
[10:21] 
[10:21] keep  your  goals  I  mean  this  work  has  to
[10:25] 
[10:25] be  that  way  you  need  to  transmit  that
[10:28] 
[10:28] vision  to  the  other  peoples  that  are
[10:30] 
[10:30] coding  so  you've  been  a  CTO  for  a  while
[10:33] 
[10:33] now  and  you  said  you  code  to  keep  your
[10:36] 
[10:36] sanity  so  you  really  missed  you  really
[10:38] 
[10:38] miss  coding  or
[10:41] 
[10:41] yes  yes  not  so  much  calling  because  I  am
[10:46] 
[10:46] involved  in  the  technical  decisions
[10:49] 
[10:49] more  or  less  with  all  of  them  but  I
[10:53] 
[10:53] don't  call  explicitly  all  the  solutions
[10:55] 
[10:55] but  this  is  coding  going  for  me  is
[10:58] 
[10:58] thinking  out  the  solutions  the
[11:00] 
[11:00] architecture  etc  not  not  writing  profile
[11:04] 
[11:04] in  that  sense  I  am  still  involved  in  in
[11:08] 
[11:08] coding  but  what  I  miss  most  is  having
[11:12] 
[11:12] time  to  explore  new  things  new
[11:14] 
[11:14] technologies  because  I  realize  now  that
[11:17] 
[11:17] I  I
[11:20] 
[11:20] can  spend  the  amount  of  time  necessary
[11:24] 
[11:24] to  keep  up  with  react  Alex  ear  and  many
[11:29] 
[11:29] other  things  that  are  interested  but  you
[11:33] 
[11:33] Albert  you're  pretty  involved  with  the
[11:36] 
[11:36] development  and  encoding  yourself  still
[11:38] 
[11:38] yes  still  but  as  time  goes  by  this  is
[11:42] 
[11:42] changing  and  changing  and  it  has  been
[11:45] 
[11:45] changing  for  a  while  I  still  got  eyes  I
[11:49] 
[11:49] have
[11:50] 
[11:50] developed  some  big  chunks  of  of  features
[11:55] 
[11:55] or  some  big  reef  actors  or  something
[12:00] 
[12:00] interesting  lately  but  this  is  changing
[12:03] 
[12:03] us  all  so  we  are  growing  the  team  now  we
[12:06] 
[12:06] are  going  to  be  five  people  at  the  end
[12:08] 
[12:08] of  the  year  so
[12:10] 
[12:10] I  will  I  will  quit
[12:15] 
[12:15] doing  that  magically  but  yeah  it's  you
[12:19] 
[12:19] look  forward  to  your  development  team
[12:21] 
[12:21] growing  and  yeah  yes  absolutely  to  that
[12:24] 
[12:24] but  you  you  you  but  you  will  be  more  and
[12:27] 
[12:27] more  like  you  know  ad  or  HR  bus  or  more
[12:32] 
[12:32] than  a  technical  yeah  I  think  that  this
[12:34] 
[12:34] is  a  bit  what's  going  to  happen  but  it's
[12:37] 
[12:37] I  guess  it's  a  natural
[12:40] 
[12:40] hmm  yeah  I  roll  next  as  an  interruption
[12:44] 
[12:44] yeah  I  wouldn't  call  it  HR  boss  yeah  in
[12:47] 
[12:47] the  end  you  keep  being  you  keep  being  an
[12:49] 
[12:49] engineer  or  and  what  you  have  it's  an
[12:51] 
[12:51] engineering  problem  that  you  have  a
[12:53] 
[12:53] certain  amount  of  of  people  and  you  want
[12:56] 
[12:56] to  optimize  how  they  can  produce  as  much
[12:58] 
[12:58] as  possible  so  in  the  end  you  do  a  lot
[13:00] 
[13:00] of  all  these  people  this  person  doesn't
[13:03] 
[13:03] get  along  with  this  one  so  when  they
[13:04] 
[13:04] work  together  it  doesn't  lead  them
[13:07] 
[13:07] produce  anything  good  or  this  team  is
[13:09] 
[13:09] really  productive  fun  do  to  these  or
[13:11] 
[13:11] that  or  you  know  how  can  you  release  or
[13:14] 
[13:14] testing  right  then  you  you  just  have  to
[13:17] 
[13:17] think  about  about  your  team  as  a  system
[13:20] 
[13:20] and  you  want  to  devise  your  own
[13:21] 
[13:21] optimizer  you  try  to  reduce  friction  you
[13:23] 
[13:23] try  to  optimize  their  happiness  and  for
[13:26] 
[13:26] their  productivity  yeah  that's  a  good
[13:29] 
[13:29] way  of  putting  it  and  then  moving  on  to
[13:31] 
[13:31] the  developer  part
[13:33] 
[13:33] a  lot  about  you  guys  but  all  of  you  are
[13:37] 
[13:37] hiring  or  have  been  hiring
[13:40] 
[13:41] what  what  do  you  look  for  I'll  bet  when
[13:44] 
[13:44] when  you  hire  a  new  developer  you've
[13:45] 
[13:45] been  in  the  process  right  now  and  you
[13:47] 
[13:47] are  in  the  process  right  now  yeah  yeah
[13:48] 
[13:48] but  I  think  that  this  was  of  now  as  how
[13:53] 
[13:53] the  situation  is  right  now  in  quality
[13:56] 
[13:56] Marshall  on  our  or  most  of  the  the  hot
[14:00] 
[14:00] spot  where  where  technological  companies
[14:03] 
[14:03] are  is  hiring  absolutely  there's  so  many
[14:08] 
[14:08] companies  looking  for  people  and  there's
[14:11] 
[14:11] no  so  many
[14:13] 
[14:13] talented  people  that  you  would  like  to
[14:16] 
[14:16] be  that  you  would  like  to  be  in  your
[14:18] 
[14:18] team  so  I  look  for  people  that  I  can
[14:22] 
[14:22] rely  to  that  I  can
[14:24] 
[14:24] pass  something  big  and  I  can  quite
[14:29] 
[14:29] forget  about  it  or  I  don't  have  to  think
[14:32] 
[14:32] about  it  every  day  so  I  can  just  talk
[14:35] 
[14:35] about  it  with  with  that  person
[14:38] 
[14:38] it's  not  only  Talent  in  order  to  keep  up
[14:43] 
[14:43] with  changes  in  technology  and  so  on  but
[14:46] 
[14:46] also  there's  this  human  human  part  like
[14:51] 
[14:51] to  be  able  to  train  someone  to  be  able
[14:54] 
[14:54] to  coordinate  I  think  that  that  works  as
[14:59] 
[14:59] best  as  possible  so  someone  that  can
[15:01] 
[15:01] take  other  or  a  lot  of  responsibility
[15:03] 
[15:03] yeah  yeah  I  would  say  that  yeah  and  do
[15:07] 
[15:07] you  agree  I  reject  yours  always  always
[15:09] 
[15:09] hiring  as  well  for  your  development  team
[15:11] 
[15:11] is  there  any  particular
[15:13] 
[15:13] it's  like  what  kind  of  technology  do  you
[15:16] 
[15:16] feel  it's  easier  and  most  difficult  to
[15:17] 
[15:17] find  great  about  developers  for  right
[15:19] 
[15:19] now
[15:20] 
[15:20] the  raise  is  one  of  those  definitely  the
[15:24] 
[15:24] hardest  but  it's  not  about  technologies
[15:26] 
[15:26] but  more  about
[15:28] 
[15:28] skills  people  and  experienced  people
[15:31] 
[15:31] right  right  time  I  look  most  of  the  most
[15:35] 
[15:35] important  thing  is  motivation  because
[15:37] 
[15:37] that  was  defined  the  person  if  that
[15:39] 
[15:39] person  is  willing  to  new  things  every
[15:43] 
[15:43] day
[15:44] 
[15:44] if  this  person  is  willing  to  go  deep  in
[15:47] 
[15:47] every  time  it  has  a  problem  and  he
[15:48] 
[15:49] doesn't  know  how  to  lock  imply
[15:51] 
[15:51] accomplish  something  in  India  today  job
[15:55] 
[15:55] this  person  needs  to  be  able  to  face  the
[15:59] 
[15:59] challenge  and  research  whatever  it  takes
[16:02] 
[16:02] to  understand  the  final  result  not  just
[16:05] 
[16:05] do  the  job  hmm  because  that's  why  that's
[16:09] 
[16:09] the  part  you  need  to  go  to  learning
[16:11] 
[16:11] things  right  and  then  experience
[16:15] 
[16:15] what  experience  that  this  person  had  in
[16:17] 
[16:17] the  past  because  maybe  I  find  many
[16:21] 
[16:21] people  that  has  one  year  experience
[16:24] 
[16:24] repeated  five  times  because  they  work
[16:27] 
[16:27] maybe  in  a  marketing  company  that  makes
[16:30] 
[16:30] websites  for  clients  and  this  person  is
[16:34] 
[16:34] making  the  same  thing  over  and  over
[16:36] 
[16:36] this  person  never  reaches  a  deep
[16:39] 
[16:39] understanding  of  what  what  the
[16:41] 
[16:41] knowledges  are  because  they  never  reach
[16:43] 
[16:43] a  point  when  the  person  has  to  face
[16:46] 
[16:46] complex  problems  complex  enough  problems
[16:49] 
[16:49] and  then  cultural  field  is  another  good
[16:53] 
[16:53] one  this  you  need  to  be  sure  that  the
[16:55] 
[16:55] person  you're  hiding  will  be
[16:58] 
[16:58] working  together  with  the  rest  of  the
[17:00] 
[17:00] team  in  a  good  way  okay  right  so  we  have
[17:04] 
[17:04] a  lot  of  events  here  at  ethnic  and  they
[17:06] 
[17:06] talk  to  title  photographers  personally
[17:08] 
[17:08] every  week  and  and
[17:10] 
[17:10] some  of  them  are  looking  for  for  jobs
[17:13] 
[17:13] and  they  say  that  but  everyone  is
[17:15] 
[17:15] looking  for  like  the  coolest  jobs
[17:16] 
[17:16] everybody  is  looking  for  a  lot  of
[17:17] 
[17:17] experience  a  lot  of  experience  the  young
[17:19] 
[17:19] ones  are  telling  me  this  and  and  their
[17:21] 
[17:21] the  tell  me  like  how  how  can  everybody
[17:23] 
[17:23] looking  for  like  a  lot  of  experience  and
[17:25] 
[17:25] you  say  that  is  it  a  mistake  for
[17:28] 
[17:28] developer  to  take  a  job  that  as  you  say
[17:30] 
[17:30] like  in  a  marketing  company  you  know  and
[17:32] 
[17:32] get  you  know  the  wrong  kind  of
[17:33] 
[17:33] experience  can  you  send  me  something
[17:35] 
[17:35] about  that  power  like  how  to  get  the
[17:37] 
[17:37] right  kind  of  experience  early  on  yeah
[17:39] 
[17:39] um  I  think  that's  not  mother  much
[17:43] 
[17:43] were  to  get  it  I  think  what  we  don't
[17:46] 
[17:46] want  to
[17:48] 
[17:48] to  set  the  video  the  first  block  of  the
[17:50] 
[17:50] developer  not  like  we  want  them  to  at
[17:53] 
[17:53] least  have  work  before  especially
[17:55] 
[17:55] because  we  are  small  startups  and  small
[17:56] 
[17:56] startup  every  head  wins  a  lot  so  it's
[17:59] 
[17:59] really  really  important  that  you  hire
[18:01] 
[18:01] correctly  and  I  know  that  that  sounds
[18:04] 
[18:04] unfair  but  I  think  for  junior  developers
[18:06] 
[18:06] maybe  startup  it's  not  it's  not  the  best
[18:08] 
[18:08] there  is  place  if  it's  quite  harsh  and
[18:11] 
[18:11] it's  quite  demanding  so  at  least  what  I
[18:15] 
[18:15] did  in  the  past  and  so  on  is  I  started
[18:17] 
[18:17] working  for  bigger  companies  they  stall
[18:19] 
[18:19] of  there's  still  a  lot  of  big  companies
[18:21] 
[18:21] that  they  hire  a  lot  of  developers  and
[18:24] 
[18:24] you  can  get  your  first  experience  there
[18:26] 
[18:26] or  also  in  open  source  which  is  for  me  I
[18:30] 
[18:30] count  it  as  experience  these  people  that
[18:32] 
[18:32] may  not  have  worked  in  many  places  but
[18:34] 
[18:34] they've  contributed  a  lot  in  open  source
[18:35] 
[18:35] they  they  had  a  lot  of  side  projects  and
[18:37] 
[18:37] a  lot  of
[18:39] 
[18:39] experience  building  things  and  making
[18:42] 
[18:42] them  run  and  that's  what  matters  most  so
[18:45] 
[18:45] what  is  inexperienced  developers  it
[18:47] 
[18:47] possible  to  say  what  is  an  experienced
[18:49] 
[18:49] developer  is  it  one  year  three  years  not
[18:52] 
[18:52] not  by  years  but  more  about
[18:55] 
[18:55] experiences  what  have  you  done  have  you
[18:58] 
[18:58] built  a  website  what  kind  of  website  and
[19:01] 
[19:01] commerce  or  or  what  have  you  built  I
[19:03] 
[19:03] don't  know  library  or  image  processing
[19:06] 
[19:06] library  whatever  or  a  video  game  or  I
[19:10] 
[19:10] don't  care  what  it  is  but
[19:12] 
[19:12] doing  different  things  is  what  gets  you
[19:14] 
[19:14] experience  you  may  have  done  everything
[19:16] 
[19:16] in  one  year  run  in  five  years  that's  the
[19:20] 
[19:20] amount  amount  of  problems  you've  faced
[19:22] 
[19:22] before  and  that's  more  -  how  I  would  put
[19:24] 
[19:24] it  up  and  in  any  environment  it  doesn't
[19:27] 
[19:27] have  to  be  a  job  it  can  be
[19:31] 
[19:31] yourself  in  your  home  working  eight
[19:35] 
[19:35] hours  with  what  abilities  these  also
[19:38] 
[19:38] comes  hmm  yeah  that's  quite
[19:40] 
[19:40] revolutionary  for  like  work  in  general
[19:42] 
[19:42] that's  any  kind  of  experience  not  from
[19:45] 
[19:45] like  consultancy  or  you  know  like  a  big
[19:48] 
[19:48] famous  company  as  long  as  it  experiences
[19:50] 
[19:50] Cystic  or  whatever  kind  of  experience
[19:54] 
[19:54] that  brings  us  a  bit  further  because  to
[19:56] 
[19:56] become  a  developer  most  of  us  are  not
[19:59] 
[19:59] asked  but  most  of  you
[20:00] 
[20:00] either  take  a  degree  in  university  or  go
[20:04] 
[20:04] to  maybe  a  hacker  boot  camp  or  something
[20:06] 
[20:06] like  that  and  this  is  kind  of  the  -  I
[20:09] 
[20:09] don't  know  places  you  go  to  to  get  an
[20:11] 
[20:11] education  so  you  both  you  all  hired  a
[20:14] 
[20:14] lot  of  different  people  yeah  it's
[20:16] 
[20:16] possible  for  you  to  say  something  about
[20:17] 
[20:17] that
[20:19] 
[20:19] you  have  hired  some  people  both  from
[20:22] 
[20:22] university  with  university  background
[20:23] 
[20:23] also  like  hacker  boot  camp  background
[20:26] 
[20:26] can  you  say  something  about  is  there
[20:28] 
[20:28] like  a  clear  difference  ah
[20:30] 
[20:30] it's  I  think  it's  difficult  to  say
[20:34] 
[20:34] university  in  this  case  it's
[20:38] 
[20:38] somehow  helpful  it  helps  you
[20:43] 
[20:43] have  some  deep  understanding  of  certain
[20:46] 
[20:46] issues  that  that  are  important  if  you  go
[20:50] 
[20:50] quite  deep  in  some  technological  issues
[20:53] 
[20:53] in  some  in  facing  some  problems
[20:56] 
[20:56] sometimes  but  for  me  it's  not  a
[20:59] 
[20:59] requirement  per  se  I  think  it's  way  more
[21:02] 
[21:02] more  important
[21:04] 
[21:04] one  the  talents  and  the  motivation  to  go
[21:08] 
[21:08] further  to  to  keep  pushing  yourself  and
[21:12] 
[21:12] to  keep  improving  and  so  on  and  the
[21:14] 
[21:14] other  one  is  the  experience  that  that
[21:16] 
[21:16] power  under  here  we're  talking  about
[21:18] 
[21:18] so  in  in  this  case  I
[21:21] 
[21:21] [Music]
[21:22] 
[21:22] don't  know  it  depends  on  the  person  it
[21:27] 
[21:27] absolutely  bends  on  the  person
[21:29] 
[21:29] maybe  if  if  someone  just  got  out  of  of
[21:33] 
[21:33] boot  camp  obviously  you  cannot  value  the
[21:36] 
[21:36] experience  because  they  had  none  or
[21:40] 
[21:40] mostly  none  so  what  I  would  value  in
[21:43] 
[21:43] these  cases  and  we  have  hired  people
[21:46] 
[21:46] from  boot  camps  at  capo  what  I  would
[21:49] 
[21:49] value  is
[21:50] 
[21:50] motivation  and  Stalin  and  it's
[21:54] 
[21:54] something
[21:55] 
[21:55] sometimes  difficult  to  spot  but  I  think
[21:59] 
[21:59] it's  it  makes  sense  and  in  the  medium
[22:04] 
[22:04] long  turn  and  this  would  make  a  good
[22:06] 
[22:06] develop  hmm
[22:08] 
[22:08] you  run  a  developing  team  for  a  long
[22:11] 
[22:11] time  it  gotta  be  hard  to  keep  the
[22:14] 
[22:14] motivation  up  all  the  time  what  is  the
[22:17] 
[22:17] key  to  you  know  keeping  motivation  hi
[22:19] 
[22:19] dear  do  you  have  some  you  know  some  some
[22:21] 
[22:21] personal  methods  that  you  apply
[22:25] 
[22:25] in  the  general  reveal  it  games  naturally
[22:29] 
[22:29] if  you  keep  working  on  the  same  product
[22:31] 
[22:31] for  many  years  and
[22:32] 
[22:32] the  natural  evolution  of  the  company  and
[22:35] 
[22:35] the  product  leads  to  more  complexity  and
[22:38] 
[22:38] this  leads  to  new  problems  that  need
[22:41] 
[22:41] solving  and  this  always  ends  up  in  new
[22:45] 
[22:45] challenges  for  the  people  working  there
[22:48] 
[22:48] mmm  apart  from  that  personally  we  do  a
[22:52] 
[22:52] deputation  every  week  where  we  try  to
[22:55] 
[22:55] expand  knowledge  and  keep  people  more
[22:59] 
[22:59] involved  in  the  in  every  part  of  the
[23:02] 
[23:02] program
[23:03] 
[23:03] in  the  end  motivation  is  also  personal
[23:06] 
[23:06] so  for  everyone  it  can  be  different
[23:09] 
[23:09] you  don't  know  maybe  one  day  one  person
[23:13] 
[23:13] decides  to  start  a  company  by  himself
[23:16] 
[23:16] that  happened  and  then  this  person
[23:18] 
[23:18] leaves  and  so  it's  a  lot  of  personal
[23:23] 
[23:23] parts  for  the  resist  keeping  an  eye  of
[23:27] 
[23:27] how  you  manage  the  complexity  in  your
[23:30] 
[23:30] program  and
[23:32] 
[23:32] introducing  new  ways  of  solving  this
[23:35] 
[23:35] problem  this  keeps  people  motivated  I
[23:38] 
[23:38] think  that  leads  to  the  question  because
[23:40] 
[23:40] I  think  a  lot  of  experience  that  person
[23:42] 
[23:42] also  developers  out  there  are  like
[23:44] 
[23:44] aiming  at  becoming  a  CTO  once  in  their
[23:46] 
[23:46] career  maybe  and  you  you  led  several
[23:49] 
[23:49] teams  being  CTO  several  times  if  you
[23:53] 
[23:53] were  to  talk  to  someone  now  that's  there
[23:55] 
[23:55] cannot  have  had  the  aspiration  of
[23:57] 
[23:57] becoming  a  CTO  what  should  that  person
[24:01] 
[24:01] do  so  that's  a  good  question  I  actually
[24:04] 
[24:04] am  I  don't  only  ask  developers  to  become
[24:09] 
[24:09] a  CTO  I  think  it's  general  like  some
[24:10] 
[24:10] some  skills  that  developers  usually  do
[24:13] 
[24:13] not  invest  on  which  is  the  soft  skills
[24:16] 
[24:16] and  there's  something  I  I  always  say  on
[24:19] 
[24:19] the  one-on-ones  when  I  talk  to
[24:20] 
[24:20] developers
[24:21] 
[24:21] because  I  see  it  all  the  time  the
[24:23] 
[24:23] investor  of  time  learning  new
[24:25] 
[24:25] technologies  and  following  the  mastery
[24:28] 
[24:28] of  their  of  their  craft  but  they  don't
[24:30] 
[24:30] invest  that  much  time  on  the  soft  skills
[24:32] 
[24:32] and  that  comes  from  being  able  to
[24:36] 
[24:36] discuss  with  someone  and  which  a
[24:38] 
[24:38] reasonable  conclusion  instead  of  just
[24:40] 
[24:40] you  know  like  facing  on  each  other  with
[24:43] 
[24:43] their  point  of  views  being  able  to
[24:45] 
[24:45] convince  people  being  able  to  understand
[24:47] 
[24:47] other  people  being  able  to  communicate
[24:50] 
[24:50] so  all  these  skills  are  are  usually  not
[24:54] 
[24:54] that
[24:56] 
[24:56] that  invested  and  I  think  it  really
[24:59] 
[24:59] makes  a  difference  because  after  all
[25:00] 
[25:00] when  you  see  do  usually  you're  not  the
[25:04] 
[25:04] more  talented  developer  on  the  team  like
[25:07] 
[25:07] most  of  the  times  and  if  you  are  maybe
[25:10] 
[25:10] you  know  like  you  could  add  you  came
[25:13] 
[25:13] with  herring  but  but  I  think  you  value
[25:17] 
[25:17] it's  in  the  interaction  especially  when
[25:19] 
[25:19] when  you  work  with  management  team
[25:20] 
[25:20] actually  very  important  and
[25:24] 
[25:24] we  all  heard  there's  like  different  you
[25:28] 
[25:28] know  developer  stereotypes  you  know
[25:31] 
[25:31] brought  by  like  TV  shows  you  know
[25:34] 
[25:34] Silicon  Valley  and  all  these  you  know
[25:36] 
[25:36] stereotypes  of  developers  that  get
[25:39] 
[25:39] portrayed  by  the  media  but
[25:42] 
[25:42] Easter  Easter  you  know
[25:45] 
[25:45] stereotypes  in  amongst  developers  do
[25:48] 
[25:48] they  exist  is  it  that  you  know  clear  is
[25:52] 
[25:52] it  possible  to  say  you  want  to  help
[25:54] 
[25:54] yourself  some  of  it  will  be  hard  to
[25:55] 
[25:55] today  but  you  know  I  think  so  I  mean  I
[25:59] 
[25:59] think  one  thing  developers  have  in
[26:00] 
[26:00] common  is  that  they  are  really  rational
[26:02] 
[26:02] so  you  will  find  always
[26:05] 
[26:05] when  you  discuss  with  with  developers  or
[26:08] 
[26:08] when  you  sketch  with  our  people  and  they
[26:11] 
[26:11] tend  to  be  extremely  rational  because
[26:13] 
[26:13] the  way  we  have  to  look  at  problems  we
[26:15] 
[26:15] analyze  them  and  we  have  to  understand
[26:17] 
[26:17] how  the  world  works  and  then
[26:20] 
[26:20] developers  get  really  upset  when  if  you
[26:23] 
[26:23] tell  them  you're  you  you  have  to  do  this
[26:24] 
[26:24] because  you  have  to  do  it  and  they  want
[26:27] 
[26:27] to  it  they  need  the  rational  explanation
[26:29] 
[26:29] so  in  that  sense  they  are  made  a  lot  of
[26:31] 
[26:31] jokes  you  know  around  developers
[26:33] 
[26:33] sometimes  and  they  get  too  extreme  but
[26:36] 
[26:36] that  I  would  say  this  one  is  the  one
[26:39] 
[26:39] that  holds  true  always  clear  passionate
[26:42] 
[26:42] and  heart  with  the  opinions  and  that's
[26:45] 
[26:45] what  make  them  good  developer  the
[26:47] 
[26:47] toughest  from  point  and  keep  it  unless
[26:50] 
[26:50] someone  else  has  ever  more  good  argument
[26:53] 
[26:53] or  a  different  kind  of  argument  that  he
[26:55] 
[26:55] accepts  so  so  shoot  everyone  code  or
[26:58] 
[26:58] should  you  be  belong  to  this  kind  of
[27:00] 
[27:00] very  no  personality  if  you  if  you're
[27:04] 
[27:04] like  I  don't  think  either  I  mean  I  don't
[27:06] 
[27:06] think  everyone  should  go  but  I  don't
[27:08] 
[27:08] think  that's  the  only  people  that  should
[27:10] 
[27:10] coach  should  be  these  with  this  specific
[27:14] 
[27:14] set  of  villages  I  mean  it  depends  as
[27:17] 
[27:17] with  every  profession  and  with  every
[27:21] 
[27:21] [Music]
[27:23] 
[27:23] way  of  doing  things  mmm  I
[27:26] 
[27:26] think  that  everyone
[27:30] 
[27:30] is  not
[27:32] 
[27:32] able  to  to  do  every  job  I  couldn't  be  I
[27:35] 
[27:35] don't  know  maybe  a  politician  or
[27:38] 
[27:38] maybe  I  wouldn't  be  a
[27:42] 
[27:42] doctor  because  I'm  afraid  plot  so  sure
[27:47] 
[27:47] yeah  so  looking  a  bit  forward  if  you're
[27:51] 
[27:51] a  developer  right  now  maybe  in  education
[27:53] 
[27:53] or  looking  to  get  into  loving
[27:55] 
[27:55] projects  what  kind  of  technology  should
[27:59] 
[27:59] you  know  a  developer  you  know  looking  to
[28:02] 
[28:02] learn
[28:03] 
[28:03] roche  you're  working  on  some  new
[28:06] 
[28:06] projects  right  now  if  developer  would
[28:09] 
[28:09] take  command  and  be  hired  by  you  in  in
[28:11] 
[28:11] one  year  what  kind  of  like  yeah  what
[28:14] 
[28:14] should  he  know  what  is  like  his  is  it's
[28:17] 
[28:17] a  big  question  maybe  but  yeah
[28:21] 
[28:21] the
[28:21] 
[28:21] problem  sure  everything  sure  in  the  end
[28:24] 
[28:24] it's  not  about  one  specific  technology
[28:26] 
[28:26] right  right  now  have  Ruby  Python  and
[28:29] 
[28:29] JavaScript
[28:31] 
[28:31] lots  of  things  well  tell  asleep  you  may
[28:34] 
[28:34] say  is  a  good  one  to  know  in  for  many
[28:38] 
[28:38] reasons  right  right  so  is  it  the  same
[28:42] 
[28:42] for  you  and  do  you  think  I  mean  i  i  i  do
[28:45] 
[28:45] think  javascript  is  the  thing  to  learn
[28:48] 
[28:48] in  general  because  it's  versatile  so  the
[28:51] 
[28:51] problem  right  now  is  that  you  know  if
[28:53] 
[28:53] you  back  in  you  have  a  set  of  two  or
[28:55] 
[28:55] three  technologies  that  more  or  less  and
[28:57] 
[28:57] i've  been  used  if  you  frontin  you  have
[29:00] 
[29:00] to  use  a  JavaScript  or  one  set  of
[29:03] 
[29:03] JavaScript  or  something  that  turns  piles
[29:04] 
[29:04] too  but  more  or  less  in  you  end  up
[29:06] 
[29:06] always  with  javascript  and  if  you  do
[29:08] 
[29:08] mobile  you  either  have  to  do  swift  or
[29:10] 
[29:10] java  so  it's  it's  very  difficult  for  a
[29:13] 
[29:13] for  a  founder  or  for  a  small  company  to
[29:17] 
[29:17] hire  developers  to  might  all  these
[29:19] 
[29:19] positions  because  you  would  still  need
[29:21] 
[29:21] at  least  one  back  in  and  this  one  front
[29:24] 
[29:24] end  is  more  mobile  if  you  happen  to  have
[29:26] 
[29:26] you  know  like  mobile  apps  and  so  on  and
[29:29] 
[29:29] if  you  want  to  go  native  in  both  you
[29:31] 
[29:31] need  one  one  native  android  I'm  gonna
[29:33] 
[29:33] sort  of  hustle  so  jobs  keep  likely  have
[29:36] 
[29:37] technologies  to  cover  all  of  it  um
[29:39] 
[29:39] you  know  like  you  may  be  more  fun  or  or
[29:42] 
[29:42] less  but  I  think  it's  the  most  versatile
[29:44] 
[29:44] skill  right  now  because  if  you  want  to
[29:46] 
[29:46] you  can  cover  up  to  these  four  positions
[29:50] 
[29:50] right  as  we're  talking  about  Yahoo
[29:52] 
[29:52] Shipton  and  different  topics
[29:54] 
[29:54] about  you  know  a  lot  of  the  F  front-end
[29:59] 
[29:59] frameworks  as  you  know  becoming  the  last
[30:01] 
[30:01] years  and  and  are  probably  going  to  come
[30:04] 
[30:04] for  the  next  year's
[30:07] 
[30:07] do  you  see  that  like  one  or  other  like
[30:11] 
[30:11] one  of  the  or  the  other  frameworks  that
[30:13] 
[30:13] have  been  coming  out  lately  now  and  you
[30:15] 
[30:15] know  will  prevail  and  be  like  the  one
[30:17] 
[30:17] people  will  use  or  or  do  you  think  that
[30:19] 
[30:19] there  will  I  come  one  tomorrow  and  I
[30:21] 
[30:22] will  be  like  the  new  here's  a  new  thing
[30:24] 
[30:24] what  do  you  think  crochet  it's  hard  to
[30:26] 
[30:26] say
[30:27] 
[30:27] giving  the  last  few  years  right  now
[30:31] 
[30:31] react  seems  to  be  the  most  common  one
[30:35] 
[30:35] but  you  never  know  what  will  be  in  the
[30:38] 
[30:38] future  I  mean  that  I'm  not  comfortable
[30:41] 
[30:41] saying  that  guy  could  be  the  the
[30:43] 
[30:43] de-facto  technology  two  years  in  the
[30:46] 
[30:46] future  I  don't  know  I've  heard  you  pal
[30:50] 
[30:50] being  pretty  like  passionate  about  to
[30:51] 
[30:51] react  yeah  um  yeah  what  one  year  ago  I
[30:54] 
[30:54] made  my  predictions  in  backboards  appear
[30:57] 
[30:57] angular  will  keep  up  amber  will  keep
[30:59] 
[30:59] ignition  react  will  dominate  I'm  that
[31:04] 
[31:04] was  a  good  prediction  and  actually  last
[31:06] 
[31:06] week  there  was  the  state  of  JavaScript
[31:08] 
[31:09] is  a  a  poll  that  they  they  release  every
[31:12] 
[31:12] every  year  and  and  yeah  react  is  leading
[31:15] 
[31:15] the  way  right  now  I  must
[31:17] 
[31:17] say  you  know  we  were  thinking  the  same
[31:21] 
[31:21] our  backbone  and  three  years  ago  and  we
[31:23] 
[31:23] never  know  what's  gonna  come  but  it's  in
[31:28] 
[31:28] my  interest  also  to  FN  react  because  I
[31:30] 
[31:30] invested  in  eight  of  my  company  so  I
[31:32] 
[31:32] want  to  keep  up  the  illusion  that
[31:34] 
[31:34] everything  is  going  to  be  react  in  the
[31:36] 
[31:36] future
[31:39] 
[31:39] Alba  is  it  possible  to  ask  you  did  a  bit
[31:43] 
[31:43] of  a  different  question  but  you  know
[31:46] 
[31:46] what  world  is  the  most  mature  technology
[31:48] 
[31:48] stack  you  would  use  for  a  critical
[31:49] 
[31:49] project  right  now  the  most  mature  yeah
[31:52] 
[31:52] it's  possible  to  ask  ah
[31:55] 
[31:55] if  I  would  have  to  start  it  so  it  would
[31:59] 
[31:59] I  would  be  in  charge  of  it  yeah  right  I
[32:01] 
[32:01] would  use  the  tools  that  I'm  most
[32:03] 
[32:03] familiar  with  which  are  rails  back  ends
[32:06] 
[32:06] and  uh
[32:07] 
[32:07] like  an  old-school  front  end  and  so  on
[32:10] 
[32:10] um  I  don't  know  I  think  it  depends  on
[32:14] 
[32:14] on  the  tools  that  you  are  most  familiar
[32:17] 
[32:17] with  and  in  the  end
[32:21] 
[32:21] some  people  think  that  they  have  to  keep
[32:25] 
[32:25] adding  new  shiny  tools  every  every  year
[32:28] 
[32:28] I  don't  think  so  I  think  mmm  it  depends
[32:31] 
[32:31] on  every  person  first  but  also  some
[32:36] 
[32:36] technology  that  you  know  how  it's  going
[32:38] 
[32:38] to  behave  in  every  situation  and  that
[32:40] 
[32:40] you  very  familiar  with  and  you  have  a
[32:42] 
[32:42] lot  experience  with  it  that's  fantastic
[32:44] 
[32:44] I  mean  you  you  don't  have  to  to  worry
[32:48] 
[32:48] about  strange  behaviors  or  some  some
[32:51] 
[32:51] things  that  you  haven't
[32:53] 
[32:53] you  haven't  played  with  it  so  yeah  well
[32:57] 
[32:57] I  agree  that  you  have  to  always  use
[33:01] 
[33:01] things  that  are  mature  and  that  you
[33:04] 
[33:04] control  and  so  on  but  this  is  a
[33:05] 
[33:05] something  that  works  pretty  well  in  the
[33:09] 
[33:09] past  for  us  that  is  that  in  order  to
[33:12] 
[33:13] attract  developers  and  you  know  unlikely
[33:16] 
[33:16] you  have  to  sometimes  put  the  shiny
[33:18] 
[33:18] things  in  front  yeah  yeah  so  master  is  a
[33:22] 
[33:22] big  thing  for  developers  so  happy
[33:24] 
[33:24] developers  the  developer  and  resist  hate
[33:26] 
[33:26] himself  I  I  don't  have  time  to  keep  up
[33:28] 
[33:28] with  analogy  and  I  would  love  to  so
[33:30] 
[33:30] sometimes  you  have  to  make  trade-offs
[33:32] 
[33:32] and  you  may  for  instance  you  may  choose
[33:36] 
[33:36] a  more  solid  technology  on  the  back  end
[33:38] 
[33:38] and  be  a  bit  conservative  there  but  you
[33:41] 
[33:41] may  want  to  get  the  rivets  shiny  on  the
[33:43] 
[33:43] front  end  or  vice  versa  like  a  red  good
[33:45] 
[33:45] for  instance  when  we  were  team  box  back
[33:47] 
[33:47] then  I  remember  we  managed  to  hire
[33:49] 
[33:49] really  good  people  like  miss  left  for
[33:52] 
[33:52] instance  which  is  a  well  known  person  on
[33:53] 
[33:53] the  Ruby  community  because  we  were  one
[33:56] 
[33:56] of  the  first  companies  in  persona  that
[33:58] 
[33:58] was  investing  on  Ruby  on  Rails  so  that
[34:00] 
[34:00] gave  us  access  to  good  developers  that
[34:04] 
[34:04] would  come  to  a  smaller  company  maybe
[34:07] 
[34:07] being  paid  less  than  big  corporation
[34:09] 
[34:09] doing  PHP  or  Java  because  we  were  using
[34:12] 
[34:12] the  shiny  thing  so  I  think  you  need  to
[34:15] 
[34:15] make  sure  well  the  dough  straight  of  you
[34:17] 
[34:17] then  through  it  that's  something  you  can
[34:19] 
[34:19] do  when  you  introduce  the  technology
[34:21] 
[34:21] once  you  have  the  knowledge  running  for
[34:24] 
[34:24] one  year  you  can  do  a  manage  you  know
[34:26] 
[34:26] you  know  if  you  empower  if  you  empower
[34:28] 
[34:28] your  you  developers
[34:31] 
[34:31] towards  the  root  of  mastery  one  thing  we
[34:34] 
[34:34] do  at  Red  Bull  for  instance  we  dedicate
[34:36] 
[34:36] one  week  every  every  six  weeks  and  you
[34:39] 
[34:40] give  the  developers  you  know  the  time  to
[34:42] 
[34:42] do  whatever  they  want  and
[34:44] 
[34:44] they  will  upgrade  the  versions  they  will
[34:47] 
[34:47] put  that  framework  Gabe  will  put  that
[34:49] 
[34:49] you  know  like  because  they  want  to  play
[34:51] 
[34:51] with  it  and  when  you  give  them  the  time
[34:54] 
[34:54] they  will  find  the  time  to  introduce  the
[34:57] 
[34:57] signee  this  anything  in  your  project  the
[34:59] 
[34:59] poem  is  when  you  don't  give  them  the
[35:01] 
[35:01] time  this  never  and  then  you  you  never
[35:04] 
[35:04] have  time  to  do  these  things  yeah  you
[35:07] 
[35:07] think  it's  necessary  though  to  to  give
[35:09] 
[35:09] your  developers  a  bit  of  time  every
[35:11] 
[35:11] month  or  every  quarter  to  be  creative  to
[35:13] 
[35:13] you  have  the  wrong  time  I  think  I  think
[35:16] 
[35:16] so
[35:17] 
[35:17] especially  for  motivation  we  we  had
[35:20] 
[35:20] in  the  past  very  successful  features  and
[35:24] 
[35:24] experiments  with  that  I  wouldn't  say  the
[35:27] 
[35:27] return  has  been  spectacular  like
[35:29] 
[35:29] sometimes  it's  it's  really  good  and  then
[35:31] 
[35:31] this  is  just  some  technical  depth  but
[35:34] 
[35:34] overall  for  the  productivity  and  and
[35:38] 
[35:38] motivation  of  the  team  that's  I  think
[35:40] 
[35:40] it's  quick  how  are  you  doing  that
[35:43] 
[35:43] version  in  income  alone  or  your
[35:45] 
[35:45] employees  or  your  development  team  do
[35:47] 
[35:47] you  have  any  time  to  we're  not  doing
[35:49] 
[35:49] that  specifically  but  we  do  give
[35:53] 
[35:53] extremely  freedom  to  everyone  to  solve
[35:57] 
[35:57] the  problem  at  hand  I  mean  there's  no  we
[36:00] 
[36:00] don't  have  persons  working  in  one
[36:01] 
[36:01] specific  part  it's  the  contrary  one
[36:05] 
[36:05] person  has  to  develop  a  project  or  solve
[36:08] 
[36:08] something  or  implement  a  feature  and
[36:10] 
[36:10] it's  up  to  them  how  to
[36:12] 
[36:12] accomplish  the  goal  so  so  free  freedom
[36:15] 
[36:15] is  to  work  here  yeah
[36:18] 
[36:18] so  as  we  we're  running  a  bit  out  of  time
[36:22] 
[36:22] but  you  know  as  as  everything  goes
[36:25] 
[36:25] digital  these  days
[36:27] 
[36:27] you  know  I'm  wondering  because  I'm  not  a
[36:30] 
[36:30] developer  myself
[36:32] 
[36:32] do  you  guys  think  it  you  need  to  know
[36:36] 
[36:36] how  to  code  how  to  how  to  be  developer
[36:40] 
[36:40] how  to  do  to  understand  the  world  around
[36:41] 
[36:41] us  as  as  you  know  the  Internet  of  Things
[36:44] 
[36:44] everything  gets  connected  you  know  will
[36:46] 
[36:46] you  like  as  our  grandparents  you  know
[36:48] 
[36:48] like  behind  because  you  don't  know  a
[36:50] 
[36:50] cell  phone  these  days  you  know  we'll  be
[36:51] 
[36:51] the  same  in  20  years  if  you  if  you  don't
[36:54] 
[36:54] know  how  to  code  you  don't  know  how
[36:55] 
[36:55] you're  you  know  your  internet-connected
[36:58] 
[36:58] Levi's  work  you  know
[37:01] 
[37:01] we'll  shoot  shoot  everyone  learn  to  code
[37:03] 
[37:03] it's  my  question  actually
[37:05] 
[37:05] yeah  I  I  think  I  could  draw  a
[37:11] 
[37:11] parallelism  with  electricity  you  know
[37:13] 
[37:13] before  there  was  no  electricity  and  when
[37:15] 
[37:15] energy  the  game  not  everybody  became  an
[37:17] 
[37:17] electrician  so  it's  useful  and  sometimes
[37:20] 
[37:20] at  home  you  wish  you  had  this  knowledge
[37:21] 
[37:21] you  know  because  you  could  fix  these
[37:23] 
[37:23] these  things  or  disorders  I  think  with
[37:26] 
[37:26] coding  it's  the  same  it  just  evolution  a
[37:28] 
[37:28] technology  that  solves  some  problems  and
[37:30] 
[37:30] if  you  have  the  skill  you  can  do  things
[37:32] 
[37:33] that  you  couldn't  do  before  I'm  not
[37:34] 
[37:34] really  sure  though  that  everybody  needs
[37:36] 
[37:36] to  to  see  how  the  sausage  is  made  so  so
[37:40] 
[37:40] we  just  have  to  trust  you  guys  of  course
[37:42] 
[37:42] that's  that's  a  whole  point
[37:46] 
[37:46] okay  we're  running  out  of  time  but  thank
[37:48] 
[37:48] you  all  for  for  being  here  for
[37:50] 
[37:50] participating  sharing  some  of  your
[37:51] 
[37:51] knowledge
[37:52] 
[37:52] and  good  luck  in  all  of  your  projects
[37:54] 
[37:54] thank  you
[37:55] 
[37:55] [Music]