Nauta Capital & Active Venture Partners on metrics, entrepreneur execution and the EU VC scene — vídeo y transcripción

[00:04] Uh  first  of  all  u  welcome  Jordi.  Welcome
[00:07] 
[00:07] Blair.  Yeah  thank  you.  Thanks  for  having
[00:09] 
[00:09] us  here.  Very  very  happy  that  you  take
[00:10] 
[00:10] time  to  to  be  here  with  us.  Uh  before  we
[00:13] 
[00:13] really  dig  into  the  questions  uh  I
[00:16] 
[00:16] wanted  to  get  started  on  I  mean  how  did
[00:18] 
[00:18] how  did  you  you  came  to  be  uh  VCs?  I
[00:21] 
[00:21] mean  how  how  did  you  get  started?  We  can
[00:23] 
[00:23] start  with  you  Ji  Na.  Uh  there  were  some
[00:27] 
[00:27] some  of  you  guys  you  started  as  a
[00:28] 
[00:28] consultancy.  You  started  you  met  in  a
[00:30] 
[00:30] consultancy,  right?  Yep.  Uh  and  I  mean  a
[00:33] 
[00:33] lot  of  people  are  consultants  but  not
[00:34] 
[00:34] everyone  become  becomes  VCs.  I  mean  tell
[00:37] 
[00:37] us  a  bit  about  the  the  evolution.  It's
[00:39] 
[00:39] good.  So  the  the  majority  of  the  uh
[00:41] 
[00:41] partners  that  started  with  NA  have  a
[00:43] 
[00:43] consulting  background.  We  actually
[00:45] 
[00:45] started  our  own  consulting  firm  back  in
[00:48] 
[00:48] the  stone  age  like  in  1993
[00:51] 
[00:51] doing  uh  telecoms  consulting.  We  grew
[00:54] 
[00:54] our  company  from  10  people  to  like  600
[00:57] 
[00:57] in  uh  and  in  the  year  that  was  in  1993
[00:59] 
[01:00] and  in  the  year  2000  we  were  lucky
[01:02] 
[01:02] enough  to  sell  our  company  to  a  a  NASDAQ
[01:05] 
[01:05] traded  uh  Chicago  based  consulting  firm
[01:09] 
[01:09] uh  called  Diamond  and  uh  and  we  became
[01:12] 
[01:12] Diamond  Cluster  uh  as  a  company.  We  went
[01:15] 
[01:15] through  the  downturn  uh  that  started  in
[01:18] 
[01:18] the  year  2000.  had  to  downsize  uh  our
[01:21] 
[01:21] company  by  at  least  a  third  which  is
[01:23] 
[01:23] very  painful.  Hope  I  don't  have  to  do  it
[01:25] 
[01:25] again  right  in  my  life.  And  in  2004  the
[01:28] 
[01:28] majority  of  the  founders  of  that  firm
[01:29] 
[01:29] that  we  started  in  1993  decided  that  we
[01:32] 
[01:32] would  change  up.  Mhm.  Uh  continuing  to
[01:36] 
[01:36] be  involved  with  the  uh  telco
[01:39] 
[01:39] ecos  technology  ecosystem  but  from  a
[01:41] 
[01:41] different  perspective.  So  we  started  uh
[01:44] 
[01:44] na  in  2004.  We  raised  our  first  fund
[01:47] 
[01:47] which  was  at  that  time  15  million  euro
[01:50] 
[01:50] fund  which  was  uh  our  money  and  some
[01:53] 
[01:53] friends  money  in  the  industry  telco
[01:55] 
[01:55] industry  right  um  we  made  a  lot  of
[01:58] 
[01:58] mistakes  uh  with  our  first  one  no  thesis
[02:02] 
[02:02] uh  too  few  investments  uh  no
[02:04] 
[02:04] geographical  focus
[02:07] 
[02:07] uh  to  a  point  where  in  2006  two  years
[02:09] 
[02:09] after  that  we  decided  that  we  asked
[02:11] 
[02:11] ourselves  whether  this  should  be  the
[02:13] 
[02:13] thing  to  do  for  the  future  Um  uh
[02:17] 
[02:17] fortunately  in  2006  the  economic
[02:20] 
[02:20] environment  was  very  positive.  So  we
[02:23] 
[02:23] were  uh  lucky  enough  to  uh  raise  our
[02:26] 
[02:26] second  fund  which  was  50  million  euros
[02:29] 
[02:30] uh  with  some  family  offices  and
[02:31] 
[02:31] institutional  initial  institutional
[02:33] 
[02:33] money  at  that  time.  And
[02:36] 
[02:36] uh  the  2006  fund  proved  to  be  a  good
[02:39] 
[02:39] fund  uh  in  terms  of  uh  actual  results.  M
[02:43] 
[02:43] so  in  2010  we  raised  our  third  fund
[02:45] 
[02:45] which  was  uh  called  now  to  3  which  was
[02:48] 
[02:48] 105  million  uh  fund  and  we  just  closed
[02:52] 
[02:52] our  fourth  fund  uh  like  two  weeks  ago.
[02:55] 
[02:55] Congratulations  with  155.  So  that's  a
[02:57] 
[02:57] bit  how  the  whole  thing  got  started.
[02:59] 
[02:59] Exactly.  And  I'm  I'm  curious  because  I
[03:00] 
[03:00] mean  h  it's  something  to  decide  to
[03:03] 
[03:03] become  investors  and  and  I  mean  you  have
[03:06] 
[03:06] clearly  you  know  insights  about  the
[03:07] 
[03:07] technology  industry  from  being
[03:09] 
[03:09] consultants  but  how  do  you  go  out  and
[03:11] 
[03:11] and  find  LPS  to  back  you?  I  mean  how  do
[03:13] 
[03:13] you  do  that?  That's  a  tough  thing  to  do.
[03:16] 
[03:16] As  I  said  the  first  fund  was  not
[03:18] 
[03:18] difficult  to  raise  because  we  we  used  uh
[03:22] 
[03:22] some  of  our  money  and  some  friends  money
[03:24] 
[03:24] enough  to  get  started  and  prove
[03:26] 
[03:26] ourselves.
[03:28] 
[03:28] Um,  second  fan  was  uh  a  bit  tougher
[03:31] 
[03:31] because  we  had  to  go  and  talk  to  people
[03:35] 
[03:35] uh  say  outside  our  network  if  you  want.
[03:38] 
[03:38] Um,  I  think  that  our  previous  uh  uh
[03:42] 
[03:42] story  uh  with  with  the  consulting  firm
[03:45] 
[03:45] was
[03:46] 
[03:46] successful.  So  we  took  advantage  of  that
[03:49] 
[03:49] position  we  had  uh  back  in  back  in  2006.
[03:52] 
[03:52] So  there  were  people  that  recognized
[03:54] 
[03:54] that  we  had  done  some  things  uh
[03:57] 
[03:57] correctly  uh  in  by  uh  building  a
[04:00] 
[04:00] business  ourselves.  So  I  think  that  it
[04:02] 
[04:02] was  all  about  it.  It  was  less  about
[04:05] 
[04:05] track  record  or  thesis  or  anything.  It
[04:07] 
[04:07] was  more  about  our  own  track  record  as
[04:09] 
[04:09] entrepreneurs.  Right.  Who  who  were  your
[04:10] 
[04:10] first  big  LP?
[04:13] 
[04:13] Um  I  think  that  for  say  the  first
[04:15] 
[04:15] institutional  fund  the  2006  fund  was  a
[04:18] 
[04:18] was  a  mix  was  mostly  family  offices  and
[04:21] 
[04:21] it  was  pretty  distributed.  So  we  did  not
[04:23] 
[04:23] have  a  one  single  LP  that  acted  as  an
[04:27] 
[04:27] anchor  investor  for  our  funds.  So  we
[04:29] 
[04:30] talked  to  a  number  of  uh  local  by  local
[04:32] 
[04:32] meaning  Madrid  and  Barcelona  uh  families
[04:36] 
[04:36] and  uh  and  then  we  added  I  think  one
[04:38] 
[04:38] small  institutional  investor  at  the  time
[04:40] 
[04:40] but  most  of  the  money  was  private  money
[04:42] 
[04:42] coming  from  family  offices.  And  was  it
[04:44] 
[04:44] hard  to  convince  them?  I  mean  how  do  you
[04:45] 
[04:45] convince  a  family  office  that's  used  to
[04:47] 
[04:47] maybe  more  you  know  safe  bets  than
[04:50] 
[04:50] venture  capital?  Mhm.  I  think  that  the
[04:53] 
[04:53] family  offices  uh  some  family  offices
[04:56] 
[04:56] value  um  the  fact  that  we  can  act  as  a
[05:02] 
[05:02] vehicle  to  get  engage  with
[05:05] 
[05:05] technology.  Back  in  2006,  uh  technology
[05:08] 
[05:08] was  something  pretty  new  for  most  of  the
[05:11] 
[05:11] say  um  wealth  available  in  the  country.
[05:16] 
[05:16] Some  of  them  would  do  in  direct
[05:18] 
[05:18] investments  which  I  think  it's  hard  to
[05:20] 
[05:20] do  unless  you  devote  the  right  amount
[05:23] 
[05:23] and  the  right  quality  of  resources  to
[05:25] 
[05:25] make  this  happen.  So  these  people  felt  I
[05:29] 
[05:29] think  that  we  could  be  a  good  vehicle  to
[05:32] 
[05:32] get  started  with  technology.  H  that's
[05:34] 
[05:34] interesting.  And  and  uh  just  the  last
[05:36] 
[05:36] question  about  NA  I  mean  uh  you  said  you
[05:39] 
[05:39] have  a  lot  of  family  offices  with  you.
[05:41] 
[05:41] uh  uh  the  the  latest  the  latest  fund
[05:45] 
[05:45] that  you  raise  now  uh  have  you  what  what
[05:47] 
[05:47] kind  of  LPS  do  you  have  there  as  yeah
[05:49] 
[05:49] obviously  things  have  changed  since  2006
[05:51] 
[05:51] or  so  I  can  imagine  so  this  last  fund  is
[05:53] 
[05:53] 50%  private  money  this  means  families
[05:57] 
[05:57] not  only  coming  from  say  based  out  of
[06:00] 
[06:00] Spain  but  also  from  other  geographies  so
[06:03] 
[06:03] we  have  uh  private  money  coming  from  uh
[06:06] 
[06:06] Latin  America  and  also  some  some
[06:09] 
[06:09] countries  uh  in  Europe  M  Italy,  the
[06:12] 
[06:12] Netherlands,  the  UK  and  we  even  have
[06:14] 
[06:14] some  money  coming  from  family  offices  in
[06:16] 
[06:16] China.  Oh,  really?  Fun.  So  this  is  50%
[06:19] 
[06:19] of  our  funds.  Uh  the  other  50%  is  uh
[06:23] 
[06:23] institutional  money.  Okay.  Both  private
[06:25] 
[06:25] institutional  money  and  public
[06:27] 
[06:27] institutional  money.  And  can  you  name
[06:28] 
[06:28] some  of  the  Yeah,  the  the  usual  suspects
[06:31] 
[06:31] in  the  say  public  domain.  So  we  have  the
[06:33] 
[06:33] ICF  here.  Uh  in  Barcelona  we  have  the
[06:35] 
[06:36] EIF  from  Luxembourg,  the  European
[06:38] 
[06:38] Investment  Fund.  Uh  we  have  the  British
[06:41] 
[06:41] Business  Bank,  okay,  which  is  sort  of  a
[06:44] 
[06:44] private  uh  public  bank  in  the  UK  that
[06:46] 
[06:46] supports  groups  that  regularly  and
[06:50] 
[06:50] hopefully  successfully  invest  Yeah.  in
[06:52] 
[06:52] the  UK.  And  we  actually  have  been  the
[06:54] 
[06:54] first  non-English  doicile  fund  that  has
[06:59] 
[06:59] received  investment  from  the  BBB,  the
[07:01] 
[07:01] British  business.  Okay.  And  then  we  have
[07:03] 
[07:03] other  private  institutions.  Right.
[07:04] 
[07:04] Right.  Wow.  Uh  and  over  to  you  Blair.  Uh
[07:08] 
[07:08] I  mean  uh  active  has  also  been  around
[07:10] 
[07:10] for  a  long  time  uh  here  in  Barcelona
[07:13] 
[07:13] especially  when  we're  talking  about  VCs.
[07:14] 
[07:14] I  mean  it's  not  the  the  longest
[07:16] 
[07:16] tradition  uh  for  VS  here.  Uh  you  have
[07:19] 
[07:19] been  with  them  for  a  long  time  as  well.
[07:20] 
[07:20] Can  you  tell  go  through  a  bit  of  how  you
[07:22] 
[07:22] got  started?  Yeah,  we  actually  started
[07:24] 
[07:24] very  very  sort  of  similar  similar  time
[07:26] 
[07:26] back  in  2004  was  our  first  fund  also.  Uh
[07:29] 
[07:30] but  we  came  from  a  different  background.
[07:31] 
[07:31] Um  so  uh  this  came  about  because
[07:34] 
[07:34] basically  a  group  of  guys  got  to  know
[07:36] 
[07:36] each  other  uh  either  through  university
[07:39] 
[07:39] being  in  the  same  university  or  having
[07:41] 
[07:41] been  in  the  same  city  or  childhood
[07:43] 
[07:43] friends.  Uh  three  of  them  were  the
[07:46] 
[07:46] executive  partners,  the  founding
[07:47] 
[07:47] partners.  Uh  two  from  Germany,  one  from
[07:49] 
[07:49] Sweden.  uh  and  a  local  investor  from  the
[07:52] 
[07:52] Thentos  Marines,  a  very  large  uh  cement
[07:55] 
[07:55] uh  business,  one  of  the  larger  uh  family
[07:58] 
[07:58] uh  offices  here  in  Spain.  Uh  and  uh  Him
[08:04] 
[08:04] Marines  decided  he  wanted  to  to  promote
[08:07] 
[08:07] uh  an  initiative  in  the  venture  capital
[08:09] 
[08:09] space.  Uh  my  three  partners  uh  who  at
[08:12] 
[08:12] the  time  were  in  their  late  20s  um  were
[08:15] 
[08:15] looking  to  do  something  in  in  the  same
[08:16] 
[08:16] space.  uh  and  they  got  together  uh  they
[08:19] 
[08:19] gathered  together  other  family  offices
[08:21] 
[08:21] from  the  Spanish  and  German  markets  and
[08:24] 
[08:24] they  set  up  a  20  million  euro  fund  in
[08:27] 
[08:27] 2004.
[08:28] 
[08:28] Um  so  rather  than  being  from  uh  let's
[08:31] 
[08:31] say  the  same  backgrounds  so  they  came
[08:33] 
[08:33] from  different  backgrounds  so  one  of
[08:34] 
[08:34] them  came  from  investment  banking
[08:36] 
[08:36] another  from  entrepreneurship  another
[08:38] 
[08:38] from  consulting  right  so  it  was  more  a
[08:39] 
[08:40] complimentary  approach
[08:41] 
[08:42] um  and  our  first  mistake  was  uh  we
[08:44] 
[08:44] invested  in  innovation  we  invested  in
[08:46] 
[08:46] innovation  uh  in  a  wide  sense  so  not
[08:48] 
[08:48] just  technology  but  also  non-  tech  um
[08:51] 
[08:51] the  technology  went  well  for  us  but  the
[08:53] 
[08:53] non  tech  didn't  um  and  why  did  we  have
[08:55] 
[08:55] that  approach  at  the  time  because  there
[08:57] 
[08:57] wasn't  a  a  lot  of  tech  deal  flow  in
[08:59] 
[08:59] Spain  in  2004,  right?  Um,  so  it  was  a
[09:01] 
[09:01] fairly  scarce  market  for  for  good
[09:03] 
[09:03] investment  opportunities.  Yeah,  that's
[09:05] 
[09:05] changed  a  bit.  That's  changed  a  bit.  And
[09:06] 
[09:06] from  about  2006,  we've  only  done  tech
[09:08] 
[09:08] investments.  So  those  first  two  years
[09:10] 
[09:10] was  really  where  we  started  to  see  more
[09:12] 
[09:12] tech  tech  deals  coming  through.  But  but
[09:14] 
[09:14] you're  you're  you're  four  guys  in  the
[09:16] 
[09:16] end  of  your  20s.  You're  fairly  young.  I
[09:18] 
[09:18] mean  uh  is  was  it  the  goodwill  of  a
[09:21] 
[09:21] family  office  that  you  got  got  you
[09:22] 
[09:22] started  or  I  mean  how  do  you  convince
[09:25] 
[09:25] you  know  people  to  hand  over  their  money
[09:26] 
[09:26] to  to  fairly  young  people?  Yeah  I  mean  I
[09:29] 
[09:29] think  the  there  was  there  was  relevant
[09:32] 
[09:32] experience  there.  So  one  of  the  one  of
[09:34] 
[09:34] the  founders  had  uh  been  one  of  the  very
[09:37] 
[09:37] early  um  founders  early  employees  in  in
[09:41] 
[09:41] auto  scouts  or  set  up  internet
[09:43] 
[09:43] businesses.  Another  one  had  been  working
[09:44] 
[09:44] his  whole  career  basically  in  in
[09:47] 
[09:47] consulting  between  investors  and
[09:49] 
[09:49] startups,  right?  So  they  had  a  number  of
[09:51] 
[09:51] years  experience  in  in  that  space  and
[09:53] 
[09:53] the  other  came  from  a  more  investment
[09:55] 
[09:55] banking  let's  say  more  traditional
[09:56] 
[09:56] background  but  on  the  finance  side.  So
[09:58] 
[09:58] there  was  there  was  there  were  relevant
[09:59] 
[09:59] skill  sets.  My  my  background  I  was  a
[10:01] 
[10:01] lawyer  so  when  I  joined  in  2006  it  was
[10:04] 
[10:04] another  piece  to  the  puzzle  that  we  that
[10:06] 
[10:06] we  didn't  have.  Okay.  Um  so  and
[10:09] 
[10:09] basically  that  that  fund  uh  we  we
[10:12] 
[10:12] invested  in  our  our  second  fund  we
[10:14] 
[10:14] raised  between  2008  2010.  So  the  the
[10:17] 
[10:17] second  fund  which  uh  was  a  50  54  million
[10:21] 
[10:21] euro  fund  investing  only  in  technology
[10:24] 
[10:24] uh  started  in  2010.  And  do  you  have  the
[10:26] 
[10:26] same  LPs  all  all  the  way  up?  No,  we  have
[10:29] 
[10:29] we  have  some  that  have  have  followed  us
[10:31] 
[10:31] maybe  through  different  vehicles  but  um
[10:33] 
[10:33] but  the  people  that  are  behind  them  are
[10:35] 
[10:35] are  similar.  Uh  but  the  first  fund  was
[10:37] 
[10:37] only  family  offices.  The  second  fund  is
[10:39] 
[10:39] a  mix  a  bit  like  Jordi  was  saying,  no
[10:41] 
[10:41] between  family  offices  and
[10:43] 
[10:43] institutional.  Okay.  Okay.  And  not  a
[10:46] 
[10:46] dissimilar  mix  of  institutional.  No.  So
[10:48] 
[10:48] European  Investment  Fund  um  local
[10:51] 
[10:51] investors  like  the  the  ECF.  Mhm.  Uh  and
[10:54] 
[10:54] also  Telefonica.  So  we're  part  of  the
[10:57] 
[10:57] one  of  the  Telefonica's  initiatives  that
[10:58] 
[10:58] they  had  running  in  2010,  right,  called
[11:01] 
[11:01] Amedo  where  they  chose  a  few  fund
[11:03] 
[11:03] managers  in  different  geographical
[11:05] 
[11:05] markets.  Um,  so  yeah,  it's  a  it's  uh
[11:07] 
[11:07] it's  I  think  that's  how  these  funds  tend
[11:09] 
[11:09] to  evolve.  No,  you  have  a  group  a  small
[11:11] 
[11:11] group  of  people  that  trust  in  you  at  the
[11:13] 
[11:13] beginning  and  then  you  have  some  track
[11:15] 
[11:15] record  in  which  institutional  investors
[11:17] 
[11:17] can  can  can  add  to  the  decision-m
[11:19] 
[11:19] process.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Uh  and  I  mean
[11:21] 
[11:21] over  to  the  the  particular  um  VC  itself
[11:24] 
[11:24] as  it  is  today.  I  mean  what  makes  uh
[11:27] 
[11:27] what  makes  not  special?  I  mean  there
[11:30] 
[11:30] there's  a  long  list  of  of  VCs  both  in  in
[11:33] 
[11:33] Spain.  It's  growing  and  in  Europe  in
[11:34] 
[11:34] general  there  many  many  VCs  but  I  mean
[11:37] 
[11:37] you  have  some  track  record.  You  have  you
[11:40] 
[11:40] know  many  good  exits  but  uh  I  mean  what
[11:44] 
[11:44] what's  special  about  you?
[11:46] 
[11:46] Um  I  first  I  think  that  we  are  one  of
[11:48] 
[11:48] the  oldest  now  uh  in  the  market  maybe
[11:52] 
[11:52] together  with  the  active  guys.  So  we've
[11:54] 
[11:54] been  around  for  quite  some  time  compared
[11:55] 
[11:55] to  most  of  the  new  groups  that  are
[11:58] 
[11:58] popping  up.  Um  I  think  that  and  and and
[12:01] 
[12:01] this  means  at  least  one  good  thing  which
[12:04] 
[12:04] is  that  we've  had  the  opportunity  to
[12:07] 
[12:07] make  mistakes  and  still  be  alive.  Yeah.
[12:09] 
[12:09] Which  I  think  this  is  a  value  actually
[12:12] 
[12:12] that  uh  say  older  groups  have.  Yeah.
[12:15] 
[12:15] Um  we  from  the  beginning  have  taken  an
[12:19] 
[12:19] international  approach.  So  when  we
[12:21] 
[12:21] started  our  2006  fund  so  more  than  10
[12:24] 
[12:24] years  ago  we  decided  that  if  we  wanted
[12:26] 
[12:26] to  grow  the  funds  it  uh  that  we  that  we
[12:30] 
[12:30] manage  we  have  to  we  had  to  be  to  go
[12:33] 
[12:33] international.  Mhm.  So  as  early  as  2006,
[12:36] 
[12:36] we  opened  our  uh  Boston  office  and  we  uh
[12:40] 
[12:40] asked  someone  that  uh  we  knew  from  our
[12:44] 
[12:44] past  experience  to  join  us  as  partner  in
[12:46] 
[12:46] Boston,  Dominic  and  we  quickly  built  uh
[12:50] 
[12:50] an  investment  uh  unit  in  in  Boston.
[12:54] 
[12:54] Right.  Um,  in
[12:56] 
[12:56] 2011,  right  after  the  race  of  our  third
[13:00] 
[13:00] fund,  we  did  the  same  thing  in  London.
[13:03] 
[13:03] And  since  2011,  we  have  a  partner  and  an
[13:05] 
[13:06] investment  team  in  London  that  is  uh  uh
[13:10] 
[13:10] investing  I  would  say  around  a  third  of
[13:12] 
[13:12] our  available  funds  in  the  UK  and
[13:15] 
[13:15] Ireland  uh  market.  Right.  So,  so  we  have
[13:19] 
[13:19] actually  I  think  become  a  despite  the
[13:21] 
[13:21] fact  that  we  are  a  say  as  a  fund  we  are
[13:24] 
[13:24] a  Barcelona  based  fund  we  we  invest
[13:27] 
[13:27] significantly  less  than  half  of  our
[13:29] 
[13:29] available  money  in  Spain  cuz  we  don't
[13:32] 
[13:32] think  we  could  invest  more  that's  the
[13:34] 
[13:34] reason  with  the  right  yes  with  the  right
[13:37] 
[13:37] returns  for  our  uh  investors  right  so  we
[13:40] 
[13:40] decided  that  we  had  to  go  international
[13:42] 
[13:42] if  we  wanted  to  grow  and  uh  and  for  this
[13:45] 
[13:45] new  fund  the  idea  is  that  we  would  like
[13:47] 
[13:47] split  the  baby  in  three  and  uh  and  again
[13:51] 
[13:51] invest  around  a  third  of  our  uh  uh
[13:53] 
[13:53] available  money  in  each  of  the  three
[13:54] 
[13:54] geographies.  Right?  So  we  do  uh  east
[13:58] 
[13:58] coast  uh  US  east  coast  from  Boston  and
[14:01] 
[14:01] we  and  this  is  this  means  basically
[14:03] 
[14:03] Boston  and  New  York.  Then  we  do  uh
[14:06] 
[14:06] London  and  Dland  from  our  London  office
[14:08] 
[14:08] and  from  Barcelona  we  try  to  cover  the
[14:11] 
[14:11] Iberian  Peninsula.  Okay.  Right.  So,  and
[14:13] 
[14:13] those  are  the  three  areas  of  focus.  And
[14:15] 
[14:15] I  think  that  not  very  many  funds  in
[14:18] 
[14:18] Spain  and  even  in  Europe  have  this
[14:22] 
[14:22] geographical  footprint.  And  you  think
[14:23] 
[14:24] that's  important  for  for  DC  fun?  I  think
[14:26] 
[14:26] that  it's  important  uh  because  it  allows
[14:29] 
[14:29] us  to  access  opportunities  in  different
[14:31] 
[14:31] markets.  Sure.  Uh  it  also  allows  us  to
[14:35] 
[14:35] build  a  community  of  companies  or
[14:38] 
[14:38] entrepreneurs  in  different  markets  and
[14:41] 
[14:41] hopefully  we  by  doing  this  we  make  them
[14:43] 
[14:43] also  share  experiences.
[14:46] 
[14:46] The  fact  that  we've  been  around  in  the
[14:48] 
[14:48] US  for  10  years  now  I  think  uh  helps  us
[14:51] 
[14:51] our  European  and  and  most  particularly
[14:53] 
[14:53] our  Spanish  portfolio.  Yeah.  Uh  when
[14:55] 
[14:56] when  it's  time  to  travel  to  the  US.
[14:58] 
[14:58] Yeah.  Yeah.  Either  say  in  full  or  at
[15:01] 
[15:01] least  commercially.  M  so  I  think  that
[15:04] 
[15:04] this  is  a  say  differentiating
[15:05] 
[15:06] proposition.  Exactly.  And  you  think  it's
[15:07] 
[15:07] it's  it's  hard  for  a  VC  fund  that's
[15:09] 
[15:09] operating  out  of  Spain  to  only  focus  on
[15:11] 
[15:11] Spanish  companies.  Is  that  tough  in  the
[15:13] 
[15:14] in  the  technology  sector?  It  depends  on
[15:16] 
[15:16] what  what  is  your  strategy?  I  think  I
[15:17] 
[15:17] think  that  there  are  viable  strategies
[15:19] 
[15:19] for  uh  say  Spanish-based  funds  that
[15:22] 
[15:22] focus  only  in  Spain.  It  has  to  do  I
[15:24] 
[15:24] think  with  what  your  investment  thesis
[15:26] 
[15:26] is  and  also  the  size  of  your  fund.  Sure.
[15:28] 
[15:28] Right.  Yeah.  If  someone  asked  us  to
[15:30] 
[15:30] invest  the  full  155  million  of  this  last
[15:33] 
[15:33] fund  in  Spain  only,  we  would  for  sure
[15:36] 
[15:36] decline
[15:37] 
[15:37] uh  the  mandate.  And  actually  this  has
[15:39] 
[15:39] been  one  of  the  reasons  why  some  public
[15:42] 
[15:42] institutional  investors  in  Spain  are  not
[15:45] 
[15:45] part  of  our  investor  base  because  we
[15:48] 
[15:48] cannot  commit  to  certain  things.  Mhm.
[15:50] 
[15:50] And  you  think  the  the  amount  you  have
[15:51] 
[15:51] now  in  Spain  which  is  I  mean  roughly  50
[15:54] 
[15:54] we  believe  that  say  the  investment
[15:56] 
[15:56] period  we  are  starting  now  and  and  with
[15:59] 
[15:59] our  investment  strategy  which  is  to
[16:02] 
[16:02] invest  in  series  A  or  series  C  plus
[16:05] 
[16:05] companies  I  think  it's  it's  okay
[16:07] 
[16:07] hopefully.  Okay.  So  this  means  investing
[16:09] 
[16:09] in  around  10  companies  over  a  4-year
[16:12] 
[16:12] period  right  should  be  okay.  Should  be
[16:14] 
[16:14] okay.  Yeah.  and  and  active.  Uh  I  mean  uh
[16:17] 
[16:17] you're  also  have  a  a  strategy  of  your
[16:21] 
[16:21] own.  I  I  can  I  can  imagine.  Tell  us  a
[16:23] 
[16:23] little  bit  about  what  makes  you
[16:24] 
[16:24] different  uh  in  in  in  Europe.  Yeah.  So  I
[16:28] 
[16:28] think  uh  we've  taken  this  approach  since
[16:31] 
[16:31] the  beginning  of  being  Barcelona  based
[16:34] 
[16:34] uh  but  also  looking  at  other  markets.
[16:35] 
[16:35] Okay.  So  we've  kind  of  not  gone  to  the
[16:37] 
[16:37] UK  or  the  US.  We  focused  on  a  on  a  north
[16:40] 
[16:40] to  south  corridor  between  Scandinavia,
[16:42] 
[16:42] Germany  and  Spain.  Right.  given  the
[16:44] 
[16:44] background  and  the  let's  say  the
[16:45] 
[16:45] professional  histories  of  of  each  of  the
[16:47] 
[16:47] partners  behind.  Right.  So  since  2004,
[16:50] 
[16:50] we've  been  investing  in  in  those
[16:51] 
[16:52] markets.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Um  we've  not  set  up
[16:54] 
[16:54] offices  in  those  markets.  Uh  it  may  be
[16:57] 
[16:57] something  in  the  future  that  uh  that
[16:58] 
[16:58] comes.  Uh  so  we'll  have  to  just  uh  have
[17:01] 
[17:01] to  just  see  there.  So  I  think  I  I  would
[17:03] 
[17:03] totally  agree  with  what  Jordi  says
[17:04] 
[17:04] around  the  experience.  So  what  we  can
[17:07] 
[17:07] bring  to  the  table  is  12  years
[17:10] 
[17:10] experience  of  investing  in  early  stage
[17:11] 
[17:11] companies,  understanding  their  pain
[17:13] 
[17:13] points,  understanding  the  challenges,
[17:15] 
[17:15] understanding  that  what  happens  over  the
[17:17] 
[17:18] next  month  uh  perhaps  looks  critical  but
[17:21] 
[17:21] it's  maybe  a  bump  in  the  road  towards
[17:23] 
[17:23] something  much  bigger  in  the  future.  M
[17:25] 
[17:25] m.  So  I  think  that  experience  um  whether
[17:27] 
[17:27] you  acquire  it  as  a  VC,  whether  you
[17:28] 
[17:28] acquired  it  as  an  entrepreneur  um  or
[17:31] 
[17:31] whether  you  acquire  it  in  some  other  way
[17:33] 
[17:33] is  is  is  fairly  critical  in  supporting
[17:35] 
[17:35] the  companies  going  forward.  Okay.  Okay.
[17:38] 
[17:38] So  I  think  uh  that  combination  of
[17:41] 
[17:41] factors  the  geography  experience  that  we
[17:43] 
[17:43] have  um  seeing  what  happens  in  Germany,
[17:46] 
[17:46] seeing  what  happens  in  Scandinavia,
[17:48] 
[17:48] being  able  to  offer  that  experience  into
[17:50] 
[17:50] into  Spanish  companies.  Um  likewise  if
[17:54] 
[17:54] in  the  case  of  NATO  is  about  going  to
[17:55] 
[17:56] the  US  in  our  case  it's  about  okay  what
[17:57] 
[17:58] maybe  in  more  a  European  approach  right
[18:00] 
[18:00] um  I  think  this  helps  startups  right  and
[18:04] 
[18:04] uh  moving  a  bit  forward  uh  I  mean  we  we
[18:07] 
[18:07] were  talking  about  uh  funds  you  have
[18:09] 
[18:09] raised  two  funds  in  total  and  you're  on
[18:12] 
[18:12] your  fourth  now  and  I  think  it  was
[18:13] 
[18:13] interesting  you're  saying  that  I  mean
[18:14] 
[18:14] you  made  some  mistakes  and  you've  been
[18:16] 
[18:16] allowed  to  make  some  mistakes  and  that's
[18:17] 
[18:17] make  made  you  stronger  uh  but  but  it's  I
[18:21] 
[18:21] never  heard  is  from  a  from  a  from  a  VC
[18:23] 
[18:23] standpoint.  I  mean  you  hear  it  all  the
[18:24] 
[18:24] time  from  entrepreneurs  you  know  fail
[18:26] 
[18:26] fast  and  you  know  fail  failing  is  good
[18:28] 
[18:28] but  I  mean  um  now  you  raised  your  fourth
[18:31] 
[18:31] fund  and  I  mean  uh  it  might  be  a  good  uh
[18:34] 
[18:34] indication  that  I  mean  you're  a
[18:36] 
[18:36] successful  fund  but  because  I  guess  you
[18:38] 
[18:38] know  a  lot  of  your  portfolio  companies
[18:40] 
[18:40] now  are  exiting  and  I  mean  is  is  that
[18:42] 
[18:42] how  you  see  yourself  now?  You're  raising
[18:44] 
[18:44] your  fourth  fund.  I  mean  is  this  for  you
[18:46] 
[18:46] a  sign  that  I  mean  it's  it's  a
[18:48] 
[18:48] successful  fund?  I  think  I  think  that  uh
[18:51] 
[18:51] say  the  building  of  NATA  as  an
[18:53] 
[18:53] institution  as  as  an  investment
[18:55] 
[18:55] institution  is  is  going  according  to
[18:57] 
[18:58] plan.  So  we  we  we
[19:01] 
[19:01] uh  designed  a  plan  back  10  years  ago  and
[19:03] 
[19:04] we  are  trying  to  execute  on  that  plan.
[19:05] 
[19:05] Uh  you  have  to  have  in  mind  that  uh
[19:08] 
[19:08] raising  your  first  and  then  second  and
[19:10] 
[19:10] and  building  an  institution  for  early
[19:12] 
[19:12] stage  technology  investing  is  like  being
[19:14] 
[19:14] an  entrepreneur.  Sometimes  I  think
[19:17] 
[19:17] entrepreneurs  think  that  we  are  like  a
[19:20] 
[19:20] bank  or  a  ministry  or  whatever  and  we
[19:23] 
[19:24] actually  are  and  we  actually  are
[19:25] 
[19:25] entrepreneurs.  So  every  maybe  not  every
[19:27] 
[19:27] 18  months  but  every  3  or  four  years  we
[19:29] 
[19:29] have  to  go  to  the  market  tell  a  story
[19:32] 
[19:32] show  results  and  raise  money  and  this  is
[19:36] 
[19:36] exactly  what  our  entrepreneurs  have  to
[19:38] 
[19:38] do.  So  um  this  is  an  an  entrepreneurial
[19:42] 
[19:42] project  right  uh  and  I  think  it  will
[19:45] 
[19:45] continue  to  be  like  this  for  for  the  for
[19:47] 
[19:47] uh  foreseeable  future.  Right.  Right.  Um
[19:50] 
[19:50] so  entrepreneurs  should  not  look  at  us
[19:52] 
[19:52] as  say  a  different  beast.  We  are  just
[19:56] 
[19:56] like  them.  The  only  thing  is  that  our
[19:58] 
[19:58] business  is  a  bit  different.  But  this  is
[20:00] 
[20:00] all  about  entrepreneurship.  Yeah.  Do  do
[20:02] 
[20:02] you  agree?  Yeah,  I  totally  agree.  I
[20:03] 
[20:03] mean,  I  think  uh  when  when  you're
[20:05] 
[20:05] raising  the  fund  and  you're  pitching  to
[20:07] 
[20:07] investors,  you  you  put  yourself  in  the
[20:10] 
[20:10] shoes  of  the  entrepreneur  who's  pitching
[20:11] 
[20:11] to  VCs  and  getting  loads  of  nos  and  say,
[20:14] 
[20:14] "No,  no,  no."  And  you  it's  it's  about
[20:17] 
[20:17] keeping  that  stamina,  keeping  that
[20:19] 
[20:19] going.  Yeah.  Um  and  I  think  this  is  I
[20:21] 
[20:21] mean  it  doesn't  happen  every  18  months
[20:23] 
[20:24] as  saying  maybe  in  the  case  of
[20:25] 
[20:25] entrepreneurs  is  more  like  that.  Yeah.
[20:27] 
[20:27] We  have  a  slightly  longer  cycle.  M  uh
[20:29] 
[20:29] but  then  when  the  cycle  happens  it's  uh
[20:32] 
[20:32] potentially  takes  longer  and  it's  very
[20:34] 
[20:34] time  consuming  as  well  or  it  is  I  would
[20:36] 
[20:36] say  blur  that  it's  even  uh  uh  more
[20:40] 
[20:40] difficult  than  raising  money  if  you're  a
[20:43] 
[20:43] say  an  entrepreneur  uh  early  stage
[20:46] 
[20:46] technology  entrepreneur  because
[20:48] 
[20:48] entrepreneurs  normally  have  something  to
[20:50] 
[20:50] show  they  have  a  reality  they  have a
[20:51] 
[20:52] business  they  have  some  customers  they
[20:53] 
[20:53] have  revenue  when  you  start  raising  a
[20:55] 
[20:55] fund  you  just  have  a  project  right  an
[20:58] 
[20:58] investment  thesis,  a  team,  etc.  But
[21:01] 
[21:01] there's  nothing  tangible  coming  out  of
[21:03] 
[21:03] this  fund  because  the  fund  does  not
[21:04] 
[21:04] exist.  It's  just  about  a  promise  that  we
[21:07] 
[21:07] try  to  support  with  as  many  as  much
[21:09] 
[21:09] evidence  as  possible,  but  it's  just  a
[21:12] 
[21:12] project.  It's  it's  a  smoke  if  you  want
[21:15] 
[21:15] uh  at  the  beginning.  So,  so  that's  I
[21:17] 
[21:17] think  this  is  why  it  takes  time.  Well,
[21:19] 
[21:19] was  it  easier  now  this  time  around?  is
[21:20] 
[21:20] your  fourth.  Uh  I  I  think  it's  easier
[21:22] 
[21:22] because  easier  in  the  sense  that  you
[21:24] 
[21:24] have  some  goods  to  show  not  obviously
[21:27] 
[21:27] from  the  fund  you're  raising  but  from
[21:29] 
[21:29] previous  funds.  Yeah.  Uh  you're  more
[21:32] 
[21:32] known.  Yeah.  I  would  say  so  there's
[21:34] 
[21:34] people  that  have  looked  at  you  in  the
[21:36] 
[21:36] past.  They  had  they  have  declined  for
[21:37] 
[21:37] whatever  reason  but  have  been  following
[21:39] 
[21:39] you  over  the  previous  three  or  four
[21:42] 
[21:42] years  and  now  they  are  able  to  track  you
[21:45] 
[21:45] and  actually  compare  what  you  are  today
[21:47] 
[21:47] against  what  you  promised  like  three
[21:49] 
[21:49] four  years  ago.  Right.  So,  so  it  it  I'm
[21:52] 
[21:52] not  saying  it's  easier  uh  because  the
[21:56] 
[21:56] funds  you  want  to  raise  are  bigger.  The
[21:58] 
[21:58] environment  for  investing  might  have
[22:00] 
[22:00] changed.  We  we  actually  saw  that.  So
[22:02] 
[22:02] second  fund  in  2006  was  from  an
[22:05] 
[22:06] environment  point  of  view  relatively
[22:08] 
[22:08] easy  to  to  raise.  The  2010  fund  was  much
[22:11] 
[22:11] harder.  The  local  economy  was  heavily
[22:14] 
[22:14] heated.  Yeah.  Had  been  heavily  heated  by
[22:16] 
[22:16] the  uh  say  real  estate  crash.  So  there
[22:20] 
[22:20] there  wasn't  that  much  money  around  at
[22:22] 
[22:22] that  time.  So  it  also  depends  difficulty
[22:24] 
[22:24] is  also  tied  to  uh  what  is  your
[22:27] 
[22:27] environment  right?  I  mean  when  when
[22:28] 
[22:28] startups  uh  pitch  to  you  guys  I  mean
[22:30] 
[22:30] they're  showing  you  metrics  and  I  mean
[22:32] 
[22:32] milestones  and  these  things  but  I  guess
[22:34] 
[22:34] what  you're  showing  is  is  companies  and
[22:36] 
[22:36] and  what  they  have  achieved  right  I  mean
[22:38] 
[22:38] and  what  they  have  returned.  I  mean,  can
[22:40] 
[22:40] I  can  I  ask  you  what  what  kind  what
[22:42] 
[22:42] success  cases  are  you  showing  uh  when
[22:44] 
[22:44] raising  a  fund  like  examples?  What  kind
[22:46] 
[22:46] of  companies  are  you  showing  off?
[22:49] 
[22:49] Obviously,  you  you  show  you  show  your  uh
[22:51] 
[22:51] because  an  important  factor  for  uh
[22:55] 
[22:55] raising  a  new  fund  is  your  track  record.
[22:58] 
[22:58] So,  what  you  have  done  in  the  past  with
[23:00] 
[23:00] your  previous  funds,  the  amount  of  money
[23:02] 
[23:02] that  uh  you  have  given  back  or  return
[23:05] 
[23:05] back  to  our  investor  to  your  investors.
[23:07] 
[23:07] This  is  I  think  key  the  value  that  is
[23:10] 
[23:10] still  life  in  your  current  portfolio  and
[23:14] 
[23:14] you  have  to  prove  that  uh  so  we  use  our
[23:17] 
[23:17] exits  as  a  proof  right  of  uh  what  we  can
[23:20] 
[23:20] do  but  it's  not  only  about  this  it's
[23:22] 
[23:22] only  about  thesis  I  think  that  for  this
[23:24] 
[23:24] new  fund  I  think  we've  had  to  worked  our
[23:27] 
[23:27] investment  thesis  so  what  we're  planning
[23:29] 
[23:29] to  do  how  are  we  going  to  uh  produce  the
[23:32] 
[23:32] the  new  fund  formation  how  many
[23:34] 
[23:34] companies  geographies  verticals
[23:37] 
[23:37] All  this  needs  to  be  bulletproof
[23:39] 
[23:39] especially  if  you  are  pitching  very  um
[23:44] 
[23:44] educated  investors  which  is  the
[23:46] 
[23:46] international  institutional  segment.
[23:48] 
[23:48] Okay.  Okay.  That  are  that  are  actually
[23:50] 
[23:50] benchmarking  you  against  the  most
[23:53] 
[23:53] successful  funds  not  only  in  Europe  but
[23:55] 
[23:55] in  the  US.  Wow.  And  it's  it's  getting
[23:57] 
[23:57] their  more  competitive  every  year.  Um  do
[24:00] 
[24:00] you  think  or  I  think  that  uh  no  I  would
[24:05] 
[24:05] agree.  I  mean  the  sophisticated
[24:06] 
[24:06] investors  do  a  level  of  due  diligence
[24:08] 
[24:08] and  uh  they  have  a  a  very  high  bar  that
[24:12] 
[24:12] you  have  to  meet.  Um  so  I  I  would  say
[24:15] 
[24:15] the  same  thing.  I  think  it  uh  it  depends
[24:17] 
[24:17] where  you  are  in  the  in  the  in  the
[24:18] 
[24:18] previous  fund  cycle,  how  many  companies
[24:20] 
[24:20] you  sold,  what  kind  of  traction  each  of
[24:21] 
[24:21] those  companies  has.  Um  and  also  how  the
[24:24] 
[24:24] portfolio  is  made  up.  Is  it  one  star?  Is
[24:27] 
[24:27] it  a  more  let's  say  broader  approach?  Uh
[24:29] 
[24:29] and  each  investor  might  have  their  own
[24:31] 
[24:31] requirements.  Um  uh  so  So  I  think
[24:36] 
[24:36] um  yeah  it's  uh  from  a  from  a
[24:39] 
[24:39] fundraising  point  of  view  uh  finding
[24:41] 
[24:42] those  those  key  arguments  is  in  the  same
[24:44] 
[24:44] way  as  entrepreneurs  have  to  find  key
[24:45] 
[24:45] arguments  in  their  in  their  sales  pitch.
[24:48] 
[24:48] What  is  it?  Why  would  this  investor
[24:50] 
[24:50] invest  in  me?  Is  it  because  of  my
[24:52] 
[24:52] vertical?  Is  it  because  of  my  uh  team?
[24:55] 
[24:55] Is  it  because  of  my  geographic  focus?  Is
[24:58] 
[24:58] it  because  of  my  track  record?  So  I'm  a
[25:00] 
[25:00] serial  entrepreneur  and  therefore  they
[25:01] 
[25:02] believe  I'm  going  to  do  it  again.  Right?
[25:03] 
[25:03] Um  so  there  there  are  various  thing  and
[25:05] 
[25:05] each  each  investor  whether  it's  our
[25:08] 
[25:08] investors  or  whether  it's  the  investor
[25:09] 
[25:09] looking  at  entrepreneurs  has  their  own
[25:11] 
[25:11] reason  for  investing.  Exactly.  Uh  so
[25:13] 
[25:14] some  of  the  public  funds  are  more
[25:15] 
[25:15] looking  at  let's  say  supporting  the
[25:17] 
[25:17] local  uh  let's  say  ecosystem  in  some
[25:20] 
[25:20] way.  Some  pure  finance  institutions  are
[25:23] 
[25:23] looking  for  what  maximum  return  right?
[25:25] 
[25:25] um  whereas  maybe  the  the  public  ones  are
[25:27] 
[25:27] maybe  looking  for  that  financial  return
[25:29] 
[25:29] but  are  prepared  to  take  a  point  or  two
[25:30] 
[25:30] off  to  to  to  to  so  it's  there  are  so
[25:34] 
[25:34] many  so  many  factors  and  you  you  raised
[25:37] 
[25:37] uh  two  funds  are  you  in  the  plan  of  of
[25:39] 
[25:40] raising  a  third  is  is  that  a  question
[25:41] 
[25:41] that's  okay  to  to  ask  yeah  it's  a  fine
[25:43] 
[25:44] question  our  plan  at  the  moment  I  was  I
[25:46] 
[25:46] was  saying  to  Jordan  earlier  at  the
[25:47] 
[25:47] moment  where  we're  building  that  that
[25:49] 
[25:49] thesis  we're  putting  together  the  pieces
[25:50] 
[25:50] okay  to  to  understand  what  that  will
[25:52] 
[25:52] look  like  but  the  natural  progression
[25:54] 
[25:54] for  Ive  would  be  to  to  have  a  third
[25:57] 
[25:57] fund.  Yeah.  Yeah.  And  do  you  have  like  a
[25:58] 
[25:58] time  frame  or  anything  like  that  or  is
[26:00] 
[26:00] it  more  in  the  planning?  Uh
[26:03] 
[26:03] no,  we're  working  on  it  at  the  moment.
[26:05] 
[26:05] Um  so  once  we  have  the  the  base  in  which
[26:08] 
[26:08] we're  going  to  build,  we'll  take  that  to
[26:10] 
[26:10] market.  Uh  but  these  processes  can  take
[26:13] 
[26:13] month  well  months,
[26:15] 
[26:15] years,  everyone  can  be  different.  Um  I
[26:18] 
[26:18] think  between  this  year  and  next  year  we
[26:19] 
[26:19] want  to  be  want  to  be  uh  uh  doing  having
[26:23] 
[26:23] a  third  fund  up  and  running.  And  uh
[26:25] 
[26:26] moving  a  bit  forward  to  the  company
[26:28] 
[26:28] itself  because  this  is  I  mean  your  work
[26:30] 
[26:30] to  to  invest  and  find  entrepreneurs
[26:32] 
[26:32] promising  companies  I  mean  how  many
[26:35] 
[26:35] entrepreneurs  do  you  see  per  month?  Is
[26:36] 
[26:36] that  a  fair  question?  Oh  know  uh  say  we
[26:39] 
[26:39] see  hundreds  of  projects  a  year.  Um  and
[26:42] 
[26:42] when  I  say  hundreds  of  projects  these
[26:43] 
[26:44] are  conversations  we've  had  or  calls.
[26:48] 
[26:48] 50  years  from  now  having  or
[26:56] 
[26:56] I  think  uh  it's  not  a  matter  of
[26:58] 
[26:58] necessarily  having  to  be  in  a  process.
[27:01] 
[27:01] So  entrepreneurs  I  don't  say  I  don't
[27:03] 
[27:03] just  we  don't  speak  to  entrepreneurs
[27:04] 
[27:04] just  when  they're  looking  for  money.  No,
[27:05] 
[27:06] no,  no,  no.  It's  about  uh  building
[27:08] 
[27:08] relationships  and  maybe  you  have  the
[27:09] 
[27:09] first  contact  with  an  entrepreneur  18
[27:11] 
[27:11] months  before  they're  looking  for  cash.
[27:13] 
[27:13] Um  because  you're  you're  interested  in
[27:16] 
[27:16] their  in  their  story,  right?  So  when  you
[27:17] 
[27:17] actually  start  maybe  the  process  of
[27:19] 
[27:19] thinking  about  investing  in  them,  then
[27:21] 
[27:21] you  already  know  them  pretty  well.  Is
[27:22] 
[27:22] that  a  Yeah,  I  mean  that  for  me  that's  a
[27:25] 
[27:25] that's  a  benefit.  Yeah.  It  doesn't  have
[27:26] 
[27:26] to  be  like  that,  but  it's  it's  very  much
[27:28] 
[27:28] a  benefit  understanding  how  they've  been
[27:30] 
[27:30] working,  what  they're  have  they  been
[27:32] 
[27:32] consistent  in  their  in  their  path  over
[27:33] 
[27:34] the  years.  Exactly.  Um,  have  they  have
[27:36] 
[27:36] they  been  able  to  execute  on  what  they
[27:37] 
[27:38] were  talking  about  12  months  ago  when  I
[27:40] 
[27:40] met  them  for  the  first  time?  Yeah.  Yeah.
[27:42] 
[27:42] If  not,  why  not?  What  have  they  learned
[27:43] 
[27:43] in  the  process?  Uh,  where  are  they  now?
[27:45] 
[27:45] Right.  Um,  rather  than  someone  turning
[27:47] 
[27:47] up  and  expecting  to  do  an  investment  in
[27:49] 
[27:49] 3  months.  Yeah.  Yeah.  And  I  mean,  what
[27:50] 
[27:50] what  kind  of  uh  first  of  all,  what  kind
[27:52] 
[27:52] of  stage  companies  are  you  mostly
[27:54] 
[27:54] looking  at?  Yeah.  So,  we  focus  in  the
[27:56] 
[27:56] first  one  and  the  second  fund  on  a
[27:57] 
[27:57] rounds.  So,  I  would  say  a  Spanish
[27:59] 
[28:00] European  A  round.  Yeah.  Uh,  we've  done
[28:02] 
[28:02] some  seed  deals.  We've  done  some  let's
[28:03] 
[28:03] say  large  A  small  B  rounds  also.  Um  so
[28:07] 
[28:08] tickets  for  us  have  been  somewhere
[28:09] 
[28:09] between  1  and  a  half  to  to  2.5  million
[28:11] 
[28:11] on  on  average.  So  so  what  kind  of
[28:14] 
[28:14] metrics  is  important  to  you?  I  think  a
[28:16] 
[28:16] lot  of  entrepreneurs  you  know  especially
[28:19] 
[28:19] early  stage  companies  are  interesting  to
[28:21] 
[28:21] in  knowing  like  what  are  the  metrics  I
[28:23] 
[28:23] have  to  show  to  Blair  if  I'm  if  I'm
[28:25] 
[28:25] meeting  him.  You  know  what  what  are  you
[28:26] 
[28:26] looking  to?  I  want  to  see  metrics  which
[28:29] 
[28:29] support  the  story  you're  selling  me.  So,
[28:32] 
[28:32] if  you're  telling  me  that  uh  my  vision
[28:35] 
[28:35] is  to  do  this,  but  I  have  no  sales.  I
[28:37] 
[28:37] have  no  nothing  to  show.  Okay.  Well,
[28:40] 
[28:40] what  what  can  you  show  me  that  makes
[28:42] 
[28:42] sense  for  this  story?  Okay.  If  you're
[28:44] 
[28:44] telling  me  you're  going  to  be  the
[28:45] 
[28:45] biggest  app  downloaded  uh  in  the
[28:48] 
[28:48] European  market,  I  want  to  see  evidence
[28:50] 
[28:50] that  you've  had  lots  of  downloads  of
[28:51] 
[28:51] your  app.  Sure.  Of  course.  Maybe  that  is
[28:53] 
[28:53] maybe  doesn't  have  to  be  monetized  yet
[28:55] 
[28:55] if  that's  your  strategy.  Right.  But  like
[28:57] 
[28:57] positive  unit  economics,  is  that  Yeah.
[29:00] 
[29:00] to  your  typical  like  lifetime  value
[29:02] 
[29:02] compared  to  customer  acquisition  cost.
[29:04] 
[29:04] Um  again
[29:07] 
[29:07] um  seeing  that  your  strategy  that  you're
[29:10] 
[29:10] trying  to  execute  is  backed  up  by  the
[29:11] 
[29:11] metrics.  Right.  Right.  Um  so  if  you  if
[29:14] 
[29:14] you're  saying  okay  I  have  no  revenues  um
[29:16] 
[29:16] when  we  invest  in  a  company  which  had  no
[29:18] 
[29:18] revenues  and  no  business  model.  I  had
[29:20] 
[29:20] fantastic  technology  and  a  very  clear
[29:22] 
[29:22] idea  of  what  that  technology  was  going
[29:24] 
[29:24] to  be  used  for.  Right.  The  how  was  still
[29:27] 
[29:27] to  be  determined.  that  that's  okay  for
[29:29] 
[29:29] you  investing  in  companies.  Well,  we  did
[29:30] 
[29:30] one  of  those  uh  because  we  can't  have  a
[29:32] 
[29:32] whole  portfolio  made  in  our  in  our
[29:35] 
[29:35] thesis.  We  don't  want  a  whole  portfolio
[29:36] 
[29:36] of  those.  Yeah.  But  we  can  have  examples
[29:39] 
[29:39] of  those.  Uh  likewise,  we've  done  very
[29:41] 
[29:41] late  stage  deals.  Yeah.  U  which  offer
[29:44] 
[29:44] like  a  lower  return  but  maybe  a  a  safer
[29:46] 
[29:46] bet.  Right.  What  can  I  ask  what  company
[29:48] 
[29:48] it  is  that  is  that  what  that  kind  of
[29:50] 
[29:50] company  that  where  the  technology  is
[29:51] 
[29:51] brilliant  where  the  plan  is  brilliant
[29:52] 
[29:52] but  maybe  the
[29:54] 
[29:54] uh  the  unit  economics  wasn't  there  from
[29:56] 
[29:56] the  first  start?  Well,  there  was  no
[29:58] 
[29:58] business  model,  so  there  was  no
[30:00] 
[30:00] economics.  Okay.  Okay.  Sorry.  Yeah.  No
[30:02] 
[30:02] business  model.  Sorry.  Um  they  had
[30:04] 
[30:04] ideas.  The  company  was  called  Tray.
[30:06] 
[30:06] Okay.  Um  which  is  a  company  that  wanted
[30:10] 
[30:10] to  create  a  a  passport  for  your  online
[30:14] 
[30:14] reputation,  right?  So  you  would  plug  in
[30:16] 
[30:16] this  passport  into  whatever  shared
[30:17] 
[30:18] economy  type  platforms.  Um  they  had  the
[30:20] 
[30:20] whole  technology  to  allow  to  allow  them
[30:22] 
[30:22] to  identify  what  sort  of  online
[30:24] 
[30:24] reputation  you  had.  Mh.  But  how  they
[30:27] 
[30:27] were  going  to  take  that  technology  and
[30:28] 
[30:28] use  it  in  the  market.  They  had  an  idea.
[30:31] 
[30:31] They  had  what  they  thought  was  a  was  the
[30:33] 
[30:33] let's  say  the  the  hypothesis  that  would
[30:35] 
[30:35] that  would  make  sense  from  a  business
[30:36] 
[30:36] model  point  of  view.  We  believed  in  the
[30:39] 
[30:39] let's  say  in  the  in  the  technology  in
[30:42] 
[30:42] the  team  and  their  vision  to  to  be  able
[30:44] 
[30:44] to  create  this  layer  of  reputation  for
[30:46] 
[30:46] the  online  user.  Um  and  for  the  last  two
[30:50] 
[30:50] or  three  years  they've  been  let's  say
[30:52] 
[30:52] testing  different  different  models  in
[30:54] 
[30:54] that  space.
[30:55] 
[30:55] um  some  with  success,  some  without
[30:57] 
[30:57] success.  So,  uh  but  that's  one  example
[31:00] 
[31:00] of  16  companies  we  have.  So,  we  wouldn't
[31:03] 
[31:04] be  looking  for  another  15  like  that.  No,
[31:06] 
[31:06] of  course.  Yeah.  But  so,  so  most  of  them
[31:09] 
[31:09] fall  into  I  would  say  uh  a  round  company
[31:12] 
[31:12] typically  a  round  companies  looking  for
[31:14] 
[31:14] 1  and  a  half  to  2.5  million  to  support
[31:16] 
[31:16] the  next  phase  of  the  business  with  some
[31:18] 
[31:18] track  record  which  shows  that  what  they
[31:20] 
[31:20] want  to  do  execute  on  is  is  going  well.
[31:23] 
[31:23] Okay.  Okay.  whether  that's  revenues,
[31:25] 
[31:25] whether  that's  downloads,  whether  it's
[31:27] 
[31:27] uh  user  acquisition  metrics  or  a
[31:30] 
[31:30] combination  of  of  those  different
[31:32] 
[31:32] um  so  I  think  for  me  it's  very  much
[31:35] 
[31:35] horses  for  courses.  No,  you  have  to  take
[31:37] 
[31:37] what  are  you  looking  at?  What  are  we
[31:39] 
[31:39] looking  for?  Is  there  a  fit  there?  Yeah.
[31:42] 
[31:42] And  in  what  we're  looking  for,  why  is
[31:45] 
[31:45] this  team  sitting  in  front  of  me  the
[31:47] 
[31:47] best  guys  to  do  it?  And  what  can  they
[31:49] 
[31:49] show  me  to  convince  me  to  invest  in
[31:51] 
[31:51] them?  Right.  uh  and  putting  them  on  the
[31:54] 
[31:54] on  the  other  side  is  the  same  I  have  to
[31:56] 
[31:56] do  when  I'm  speaking  to  my  LPs.  What  are
[31:58] 
[31:58] they  looking  for?  What  I  have  to  show
[31:59] 
[31:59] them  and  and  what  can  I  show  that  gives
[32:02] 
[32:02] them  confidence  to  to  to  invest  in  me?
[32:05] 
[32:05] Is  it  is  it  when  you're  hearing  this  do
[32:07] 
[32:07] you  have  the  same  kind  of  thesis  meeting
[32:09] 
[32:09] companies?  Yep.  I  think  that  what  what
[32:11] 
[32:11] we  look  for  more  than  a  strict  set  of
[32:13] 
[32:13] metrics.  Okay.  We  looked  for  a  say
[32:15] 
[32:15] strict  consistency  between  who  they  are
[32:18] 
[32:18] today
[32:20] 
[32:20] um  the  amount  they're  raising  and  what
[32:23] 
[32:24] they  want  to  be  when  this  money  uh
[32:27] 
[32:27] disappears  right  and  we  looked  at
[32:31] 
[32:31] definition  of  victory.  So  what  has  to
[32:32] 
[32:32] happen  in  18  to  24  months  so  that  the
[32:36] 
[32:36] company  and  the  investors  we  have
[32:37] 
[32:38] options  right  we  have  we  can  have  the
[32:40] 
[32:40] option  to  maybe  eventually  sell  the
[32:42] 
[32:42] company.  Mhm.  Or  continue  as  is  because
[32:46] 
[32:46] they  are  close  to  profitability.  Yeah.
[32:49] 
[32:49] Or  uh  if  there  is  an
[32:51] 
[32:51] opportunity  looking  forward  then  we
[32:53] 
[32:53] might  want  to  raise  additional  money
[32:56] 
[32:56] either  from  external  investors  or  from
[32:58] 
[32:58] the  existing  investors.  So  I  think  that
[33:01] 
[33:01] as  I  said  it  has  to  be  consistent  the
[33:04] 
[33:04] equation  between  who  they  are  today  the
[33:07] 
[33:07] money  they  raise  and  the  18  to  24  month
[33:11] 
[33:11] definition  of  victory.  So  who  they  want
[33:12] 
[33:12] to  be  if  this  makes  sense.  We  are  less
[33:17] 
[33:17] strict  about  whether  they  should  have
[33:19] 
[33:19] 20,000
[33:20] 
[33:20] uh  euros  MR  or  5,000  or  50,000.  Okay.  So
[33:24] 
[33:24] this  is  this  is  not  set  at  all.  No,  I  I
[33:28] 
[33:28] also  we  have  a  fund  of  a  certain  size.
[33:31] 
[33:31] So  there  are  things  that  we  cannot  do.
[33:32] 
[33:32] We  cannot  invest  say  a  significant
[33:36] 
[33:36] portion  of  our  money  in  pre-revenue
[33:38] 
[33:38] companies.  No.  because  these  these
[33:39] 
[33:40] companies  probably  need  a  million  or
[33:41] 
[33:41] less.  We  have  a  155  million  euro  fund.
[33:45] 
[33:45] So  we  have  to  make  sure  that  the  money
[33:47] 
[33:47] we  can  deploy  when  we  come  in  is  between
[33:51] 
[33:51] say  1  to  4  million.  Right.  Right.  And
[33:54] 
[33:54] and  how  many  companies  are  you  in  touch
[33:55] 
[33:55] with  in  say  a  year  a  normal  year  for
[33:58] 
[33:58] you?  Uh  it's  it's  hard  to  it  depends  on
[34:00] 
[34:00] how  you  define  contact  but  uh  I'm  sure
[34:03] 
[34:03] we  know  at least  100  new  companies  every
[34:06] 
[34:06] month  in  each  uh  not  not  in  each  but
[34:09] 
[34:10] combining  all  our  geographies.  Sure.
[34:11] 
[34:11] Okay.  Um  which  doesn't  mean  that  these
[34:14] 
[34:14] companies  would  have  any  sort  of  fit  no
[34:17] 
[34:17] with  our  investment  thesis  but  this  is
[34:19] 
[34:19] the  amount  of  say  new  companies  that  we
[34:21] 
[34:21] get  to  know.  Yeah.  Yeah.  I  would  say
[34:23] 
[34:23] that  every  month  we  are  um  following
[34:27] 
[34:27] closely  at  least  I  would  say  three
[34:29] 
[34:29] companies  per  geography.  So  10  companies
[34:31] 
[34:31] in  total.  Following  closely  means
[34:33] 
[34:33] putting  resources  to  analyze  their
[34:36] 
[34:36] businesses.  Uh  meeting  with  the
[34:38] 
[34:38] entrepreneurs.  Okay.  Uh  talking  to  their
[34:41] 
[34:41] customers  in  case  they  have  customers.
[34:43] 
[34:43] Okay.  So  so  they  know  they  know  that  you
[34:45] 
[34:46] are  analyzing  them.  Yes.  The  the
[34:47] 
[34:47] entrepreneurs  and  you're  nodding  so
[34:49] 
[34:49] you're  thinking  the  same.  I  mean,  no,  I
[34:50] 
[34:50] mean,  yeah,  you  the  idea  is  to  create  a
[34:53] 
[34:53] funnel.  No,  and  the  closer  you  get  to
[34:56] 
[34:56] the  bottom  of  the  funnel  being  that  say
[34:57] 
[34:57] the  investment  that  you  make,  right?  Uh
[35:00] 
[35:00] the  the  more  resources  you  spend,  the
[35:02] 
[35:02] the  more  time  you  dedicate  to  it.  Um  but
[35:05] 
[35:05] you  don't  want  to  be  doing  that  with
[35:06] 
[35:06] hundreds  of  companies.  Sure.  So,  yeah.
[35:08] 
[35:08] So,  if  if  we  have  to  invest  in  in  our
[35:11] 
[35:11] case,  we  had  did  16  investments  over
[35:13] 
[35:13] about  four  years  approximately.  So,  four
[35:14] 
[35:14] companies  a  year.  So,  every  quarter,  if
[35:16] 
[35:16] you  just  do  average,  every  quarter  you
[35:18] 
[35:18] have  to  do  one  investment.  Yeah.  Yeah.
[35:20] 
[35:20] So  there  have  to  be  companies  in  that
[35:21] 
[35:21] process  during  that  quarter  which  allow
[35:23] 
[35:23] you  to  do  one  investment  or  more  or  less
[35:26] 
[35:26] over  the  over  the  course  of  the  year.  So
[35:28] 
[35:28] the  actual  I  mean  you  you  have  to  say  no
[35:31] 
[35:32] much  more  than  you  sure  than  you  maybe
[35:34] 
[35:34] like  to  from  a  kind  of  personal  point  of
[35:36] 
[35:36] view.  I  mean  you  want  to  encourage
[35:37] 
[35:37] entrepreneurs,  you  want  to  to  support
[35:39] 
[35:39] them,  give  them  advice,  give  them
[35:40] 
[35:40] feedback,  but  that's  not  necessarily  the
[35:42] 
[35:42] same  as  making  a  good  investment  from
[35:44] 
[35:44] VC.  No,  no,  no.  So  I  think  I  I  always
[35:47] 
[35:47] like  to  distinguish  between  what's  a
[35:49] 
[35:49] good  company  and  what's  a  good  VC
[35:50] 
[35:50] investment  because  they  don't  always
[35:52] 
[35:52] it's  not  necessarily  always  the  same
[35:53] 
[35:53] thing.  Right.  Right.  Um  so  entrepreneurs
[35:56] 
[35:56] who  don't  get  VC  money  very  many
[35:58] 
[35:58] successful  entrepreneurs  without  VC
[36:00] 
[36:00] money.  Mhm.  Um  there  also  entrepreneurs
[36:04] 
[36:04] without  VC  money  who  have  who  have  not
[36:05] 
[36:06] been  successful.  And  likewise  VC  backed
[36:08] 
[36:08] companies  can  be  successful  or  not
[36:09] 
[36:10] successful.  So  VC  is  not  the  I  say  the
[36:12] 
[36:12] be  all  and  end  all  of  being  a  good
[36:13] 
[36:13] entrepreneur.  Right.  It's  an  alternative
[36:15] 
[36:15] way  to  finance  your  company  and  a
[36:17] 
[36:17] win-win  situation  for  for  VCs  and  for
[36:20] 
[36:20] for  entrepreneurs.  Do  you  think  there's
[36:21] 
[36:21] a  certain  type  of  uh  I  mean  VC  friendly
[36:24] 
[36:24] entrepreneur  more  than  than  others?  I
[36:26] 
[36:26] mean  do  you  think  some  companies  already
[36:28] 
[36:28] from  the  start  you  think  that  uh  and  I
[36:30] 
[36:30] mean  do  you  think  that  some  companies
[36:32] 
[36:32] they  you  can  you  say  that  they  they're
[36:34] 
[36:34] not  VC  funded  but  they  turn  out  to  be
[36:36] 
[36:36] very  successful  in  the  end.  uh  is  there
[36:39] 
[36:39] any  similarities  between  I  mean  the
[36:41] 
[36:41] companies  that  doesn't  get  VC  funding
[36:43] 
[36:43] and  become  successful  and  the  companies
[36:45] 
[36:45] that  are  VC  funded  and  become  successful
[36:48] 
[36:48] generally  both  teams  are  are  know  their
[36:51] 
[36:51] stuff  can  execute  very  well  on  their
[36:53] 
[36:53] plan
[36:54] 
[36:54] uh  VC  is  is  a  way  to  get  experience  it's
[36:58] 
[36:58] a  way  to  get  money  right  at  a  moment  in
[37:00] 
[37:00] time  if  you  can  self  finance  your
[37:02] 
[37:02] company  and  have  experience  coming  from
[37:04] 
[37:04] other  let's  say  other  adviserss
[37:07] 
[37:07] don't  don't  give  away  20%  of  your
[37:09] 
[37:09] business.  Um,  no.  If  I  if  I  have  2
[37:12] 
[37:12] million  sitting  in  my  bank  account  and
[37:13] 
[37:13] I'm  prepared  to  finance  my  own  company,
[37:15] 
[37:15] I  can  have  100%  of  my  business  rather
[37:17] 
[37:17] than  giving  away  part  of  it.  Yeah.  Yeah.
[37:19] 
[37:19] So,  I  think  venture  capital  has  is  is
[37:23] 
[37:23] very  good  for  what  it  offers.
[37:25] 
[37:25] There's  a  lot  of  experience  there.  Um,
[37:27] 
[37:27] but  it  it  doesn't  mean  that  you're  a
[37:29] 
[37:29] good  entrepreneur  having  VC  or  or or  not
[37:31] 
[37:31] having  VC.  Right.  Right.  Right.  Um  and  I
[37:34] 
[37:34] think  uh  we  we  have  to  as  a  sector  we
[37:37] 
[37:37] have  to  look  at  ourselves  and  say  what
[37:38] 
[37:38] why  do  people  choose  VC?  Yeah.  Um
[37:41] 
[37:41] basically  because  they  want  money  and
[37:42] 
[37:42] they  want  some  experience  that  goes  with
[37:43] 
[37:43] it.  So  they  want  money  and  then  they
[37:45] 
[37:45] want  to  pick  some  other  things  that  they
[37:46] 
[37:46] want  to  go  with  it.  So  we  just  contact
[37:48] 
[37:48] maybe  it's  experience.  Um  but  if  they
[37:51] 
[37:51] didn't  need  the  money  they  wouldn't  come
[37:52] 
[37:52] to  VC  obviously.  Yeah.  Yeah.  So  so so  I
[37:55] 
[37:55] think  we  have  to  be  humble  in  that
[37:56] 
[37:56] respect.  It's  a  it's  a  relationship.
[37:58] 
[37:58] It's  a  symbiotic  relationship  which
[38:00] 
[38:00] plays  off  against  each  other.  Mhm.  We  we
[38:02] 
[38:02] get  something  which  is  a  return  in  our
[38:04] 
[38:04] money.  Yeah.  By  by  giving  the  by
[38:06] 
[38:06] investing  by  by  working  alongside  them
[38:09] 
[38:09] for  could  be  five,  seven  years.  Exactly.
[38:12] 
[38:12] Uh  and  entrepreneurs  get  that  bump  up
[38:14] 
[38:14] and  that  financing  that  maybe  they
[38:15] 
[38:15] wouldn't  have  been  able  to  get  to  just
[38:17] 
[38:17] because  either  they  don't  have  the
[38:18] 
[38:18] personal  resources  or  they  they're  not
[38:21] 
[38:21] bank  financeable.  I  mean,  are  you  I'm
[38:23] 
[38:23] curious  because  you're  both  in
[38:24] 
[38:24] Barcelona.  I  mean,  are  you  knifing  for
[38:26] 
[38:26] the  same  companies  at  at  times?  Are  you
[38:28] 
[38:28] are  you  both  looking  at  the  same
[38:29] 
[38:29] companies?  How  does  that  work  between
[38:32] 
[38:32] have  you  have  both  of  you  been
[38:33] 
[38:33] interested  in  the  same  investing  in  the
[38:35] 
[38:35] same  company  or  yeah  I  mean  the  funny
[38:36] 
[38:36] thing  is  it's  not  happened  a  lot  but  it
[38:38] 
[38:38] happens  it  happens  from  time  to  time  I
[38:39] 
[38:39] think  one  interesting  case  is  uh  I  guess
[38:42] 
[38:42] it  was  a  success  story  for  both  of  us
[38:44] 
[38:44] but  in  the  same  sector  but  with
[38:45] 
[38:45] different  companies  uh  so  back  in  200  uh
[38:50] 
[38:50] 8  well  I  was  going  to  say  2006  was  it
[38:52] 
[38:52] when  we  made  the  investment  in  uh  in  I
[38:55] 
[38:55] was  thinking  palia  we  we  did  2008  2008
[38:58] 
[38:58] so  we  okay  so  we  we  we  looked  in  200  uh
[39:01] 
[39:01] end  of  2006  beginning  2007  to  had  this
[39:05] 
[39:05] private  sales  model.  So  which  which  came
[39:08] 
[39:08] from  von  pre  in  France  became  privalia
[39:11] 
[39:11] uh  in  Barcelona  and  came  by  VIP  in
[39:13] 
[39:13] Madrid.  Right.  Yeah.  So  uh  we  invested
[39:16] 
[39:16] in  by  VIP  uh  we  we  looked  at  the  we
[39:20] 
[39:20] looked  at  the  various  companies  at  the
[39:21] 
[39:21] time  that  were  were  coming  through  in
[39:23] 
[39:23] that  in  that  space.  We  invested  in  by
[39:26] 
[39:26] VIP  in  their  in  their  A  round.  So  just
[39:28] 
[39:28] after  their  business  angel  ran  um  and  we
[39:31] 
[39:31] sold  that  business  in  2010  to  Amazon.
[39:33] 
[39:33] Yeah.  And  uh
[39:36] 
[39:36] Nela  invested  in  Pallia  12  months  later
[39:41] 
[39:41] and  sold  Pre  Valley  last  year  I  think
[39:43] 
[39:43] last  year.  Right.  Right.  Uh  but  exactly
[39:45] 
[39:46] the  same  business,  exactly  the  same
[39:47] 
[39:47] sector,  both  Spanish  entrepreneurial
[39:50] 
[39:50] teams,  one  based  in  Barcelona  and  one
[39:52] 
[39:52] based  in  Madrid.  Vet  was  a  little  bit
[39:54] 
[39:54] more  a  German  founder  as  well.  little
[39:57] 
[39:57] bit  more  of  a  mix.  Um  but  we  we  both
[40:00] 
[40:00] like  the  sector.  We  both  invested  in  the
[40:02] 
[40:02] sector  just  in  different  companies  which
[40:03] 
[40:03] competed  headed  headto-head  for  many
[40:06] 
[40:06] years.  Yeah.  Worked  out  well  for  both  of
[40:08] 
[40:08] you.  Yeah.  So  so  so  there  are  other
[40:10] 
[40:10] cases  where  we  want  the  same  deal  and  we
[40:12] 
[40:12] have  to  pitch  ourselves  to  the
[40:14] 
[40:14] entrepreneur.  If  an  entrepreneur  has  a
[40:16] 
[40:16] very  good  company  um  and  they  can
[40:18] 
[40:18] generate  interest  from  a  number  of  good
[40:20] 
[40:20] VCs  for  the  entrepreneur  it's  fantastic.
[40:23] 
[40:23] Yeah.  Um  it's  much  better  having  two  or
[40:25] 
[40:25] three  term  sheets  from  an  entrepreneur's
[40:27] 
[40:27] point  of  view  than  just  speaking  to  one
[40:28] 
[40:28] investor.  Yeah.  Yeah.  And  I  mean  moving
[40:31] 
[40:31] on,  see  you're  talking  about  some  of
[40:33] 
[40:33] your  success  cases  and  I  mean  that's
[40:34] 
[40:34] interesting
[40:36] 
[40:36] uh  in  in  your  opinion  in  terms  of  exit.
[40:40] 
[40:40] I  mean  what  what's  NATA's  biggest
[40:42] 
[40:42] success  case  for  you  in  terms  of  money?
[40:46] 
[40:47] Um  I  think  that  we've  had  a  number  of
[40:49] 
[40:49] good  successes  in  in  Spain  and  also  uh
[40:52] 
[40:52] outside  Spain.  Yeah.  But  in  Spain  we've
[40:54] 
[40:54] had  uh  obviously  Palia  happened  last
[40:57] 
[40:57] year.  It  was  a  big  exit.  It  was  almost  a
[40:59] 
[40:59] half  billion  euro  exit.
[41:02] 
[41:02] Uh  and  the  company  probably  used  a  lot
[41:06] 
[41:06] of  money.  So  we  maybe  too  much  money  uh
[41:09] 
[41:10] if  you  look  at  it  in  perspective  because
[41:12] 
[41:12] there  was  some  money  that  was  raised
[41:14] 
[41:14] that  was  uh  um  uh  used  for  an
[41:18] 
[41:18] acquisition  in  in  Germany  an  e-commerce
[41:21] 
[41:21] company  flash  sales  segment  that  did  not
[41:25] 
[41:25] say  work
[41:27] 
[41:27] um  but  it  has  been  a  great  investment
[41:29] 
[41:29] for  us  because  we  led  the  series  A  round
[41:31] 
[41:31] as  uh  Blair  was  saying  uh  and  it  has
[41:34] 
[41:34] resulted  in  a  in  a  great  exit  I  that  one
[41:37] 
[41:37] learning  from  Privalia  though  is  that  to
[41:38] 
[41:38] to  build  great  exits  you  need  patience
[41:41] 
[41:41] right  so  so  I  think  that  the  company  got
[41:43] 
[41:43] started  in  end  of  2005  went  through  the
[41:47] 
[41:47] angel  round  then  we  led  uh  series  A  and
[41:51] 
[41:51] then  I  think  that  the  last  series  was
[41:52] 
[41:52] called  series  H  at  leia  really  so  yeah
[41:56] 
[41:56] so  so  there  is  a  lot  of  money  used  a  lot
[41:59] 
[41:59] of  rounds
[42:01] 
[42:01] uh  coming  in  uh  and  it  it  took  the
[42:04] 
[42:04] entrepreneur  11  years  to  actually  exit
[42:07] 
[42:07] which  which  I  don't  think  it's  a  say  bad
[42:10] 
[42:10] um  um  outcome  at  all  and  and  uh  you  have
[42:14] 
[42:14] to  be  cognizant  that  uh  building
[42:17] 
[42:17] successes  take  time  and  you  were  happy
[42:19] 
[42:19] about  this  as  an  investor  as  well  that
[42:20] 
[42:20] it  took  time  like  this  because  you're  on
[42:22] 
[42:22] you're  on  a  time  schedule  right  yeah  we
[42:24] 
[42:24] had  we  had  we  had  the  opportunity  to
[42:26] 
[42:26] have  a  say  a  very  nice  cash  out
[42:29] 
[42:29] uh  on  the  way  I  think  that  in  2011  we  we
[42:33] 
[42:33] already  sold  some  portion  of  our  share
[42:37] 
[42:37] So  we  we  got  our  money  back,  all  the
[42:39] 
[42:39] money  back  and  and  with  some  decent
[42:41] 
[42:41] multiple  on  it  and  then  the  rest  was  all
[42:43] 
[42:43] about  upside,  right?  So  if  you  are  able
[42:45] 
[42:46] to  manage  this  type  of  faced  exits,  your
[42:49] 
[42:49] investors  get  less  anxious  about  the  end
[42:53] 
[42:53] result  and  you  still  keep  a  significant
[42:55] 
[42:55] portion  of  our  investment  as  an  upside.
[42:57] 
[42:57] So,  but  I'm  interested  because  I  mean
[42:59] 
[42:59] whether  you  have  gone  through  big  exits
[43:02] 
[43:02] uh  with  your  portfolio  companies,  but  I
[43:04] 
[43:04] mean  ho  how  how  active  are  are  you  guys
[43:07] 
[43:07] personally  uh  throughout  the  exit
[43:10] 
[43:10] throughout  the  years  working  with  the
[43:12] 
[43:12] founders?  I  mean  how  how  closely  are  you
[43:15] 
[43:15] working?  I  mean  you  were  involved  with
[43:17] 
[43:17] the  ticket  biz  right?  Yeah.  Yeah,  that's
[43:19] 
[43:19] right.  I  mean  that  that  was  a  that  was  a
[43:21] 
[43:21] big  exit  and  a  successful  exit  in  I  mean
[43:25] 
[43:25] how  how  involved  were  you  there?  I  mean
[43:27] 
[43:27] on  a  month-to-month  basis.  Yeah.  I  mean
[43:30] 
[43:30] I  think  uh  I  think  there  we  take
[43:32] 
[43:32] different  approaches.  We  have  a  more
[43:33] 
[43:34] regular  contact  from  time  to  time  to
[43:35] 
[43:35] understand  how  things  are  going,  right?
[43:37] 
[43:37] Uh  and  then  we  get  involved  in  projects
[43:38] 
[43:38] where  we  believe  we  we  can  add  value,
[43:40] 
[43:40] right?  Where  we  have  relevant  experience
[43:42] 
[43:42] we  can  bring  to  the  table.  So  the
[43:44] 
[43:44] conversations  that  we  had  and  the  the
[43:46] 
[43:46] stuff  that  I  was  working  on  with  the
[43:47] 
[43:47] with  the  two  founders  behind  ticket  biz
[43:50] 
[43:50] was  areas  where  we  had  more  experience
[43:51] 
[43:51] than  they  did.  Yeah.  Uh  for  whatever
[43:53] 
[43:53] reason.  Um  and  I  left  them  basically  to
[43:57] 
[43:57] manage  the  business  um  and  we  discussed
[44:00] 
[44:00] what  the  issues  were  uh  month  to  month
[44:02] 
[44:02] and  then  when  we  identified  something
[44:04] 
[44:04] where  we  could  add  value  either  through
[44:06] 
[44:06] our  network  or  through  our  own
[44:07] 
[44:07] experience  as  as  a  team  right  so  we  work
[44:10] 
[44:10] pretty  uh  much  across  the  the  team  in
[44:12] 
[44:12] active  so  so  if  there's  someone  else  in
[44:14] 
[44:14] the  team  that's  better  than  me  in
[44:15] 
[44:15] particular  moment  we'll  bring  that
[44:17] 
[44:18] person  in  so  although  I  was  a  person
[44:20] 
[44:20] that  managed  the  deal  um  there  was  a  was
[44:23] 
[44:23] a  team  effort  Yeah.  Yeah.  Is  it  possible
[44:25] 
[44:25] to  say  specifically  when  when  you  say
[44:27] 
[44:27] adding  value?  That's  very  interesting.
[44:28] 
[44:28] But  I'm  just  curious.  I  mean,  what  kind
[44:30] 
[44:30] of  value?  I  mean  like  exemplify  a  bit
[44:33] 
[44:33] more.  Yeah.  So  for  for  example  um  this
[44:36] 
[44:36] was  their  first  uh  exit  they  had  managed
[44:38] 
[44:38] the  exit  process  for  example.  No.  So
[44:40] 
[44:40] they  they  had  uh  they  both  worked  in  the
[44:43] 
[44:43] the  world  of  investment  banking.  They
[44:45] 
[44:45] they  didn't  have  an  M&A  broker  in  the
[44:47] 
[44:47] process,  right?  Um  uh  and  there  were
[44:50] 
[44:50] different  strategic  decisions  to  be
[44:52] 
[44:52] taken,  right?  Whether  to  sell  um  to  whom
[44:55] 
[44:55] on  on  what  sort  of  structure  uh  whether
[44:58] 
[44:58] to  to  raise  another  round  and  continue
[45:00] 
[45:00] to  build  the  business  for  another  uh  two
[45:02] 
[45:02] or  three  years  um  where  we  have  some
[45:05] 
[45:05] experience  of  that  that  that  they
[45:07] 
[45:07] didn't.  So  we  weren't  the  only  people
[45:09] 
[45:09] advising  them  in  that  respect  but  it  was
[45:11] 
[45:11] somewhere  where  where  we  could  we  could
[45:12] 
[45:12] bring  that  experience  that that  we  had.
[45:14] 
[45:14] Right.
[45:15] 
[45:15] Um  another  example  is  around  for  example
[45:18] 
[45:18] um  the  some  of  the  growth  pains  around
[45:21] 
[45:21] the  financial  planning.  So  when  you're
[45:24] 
[45:24] operative  in  in  47  markets  and  you  have
[45:27] 
[45:27] 30  30  companies  in  in  the  group.  Yeah.
[45:30] 
[45:30] Um  uh  and  and  you're  building  that
[45:33] 
[45:33] structure  and  trying  to  create  financial
[45:35] 
[45:35] plans,  manage  the  cash  flow,  etc.  Right.
[45:37] 
[45:37] um  again  is  experience  that  we  we've  had
[45:40] 
[45:40] maybe  not  not  that  scale  but  certainly
[45:42] 
[45:42] we  we  we  spent  a  whole  day  sitting  down
[45:44] 
[45:44] with  the  CFO  and  and  kind  of  sharing
[45:47] 
[45:47] that  experience.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.  But  I
[45:49] 
[45:49] think  the  important  thing  from  a  VC  is
[45:50] 
[45:50] knowing  where  you  can  add  value  and
[45:52] 
[45:52] knowing  where  the  entrepreneur  is  much
[45:54] 
[45:54] better  placed  uh  to  do  that  right  and
[45:57] 
[45:57] that  value  might  just  be  saying  sorry  I
[45:59] 
[45:59] can't  help  you  but  I  know  somebody  who
[46:00] 
[46:00] can  and  bringing  somebody  to  the  table
[46:03] 
[46:03] uh  who  can  add  value  and  have  that
[46:05] 
[46:05] conversation  direct  with  the
[46:06] 
[46:06] entrepreneur.  So,  so  it's  again  it's  not
[46:08] 
[46:08] I  don't  have  to  be  the  center  of
[46:09] 
[46:09] attention.  Exactly.  Uh  when  when  I  make
[46:11] 
[46:11] the  investment  I  don't  have  to  be
[46:13] 
[46:13] sitting  in  every  meeting.  I  don't  have
[46:14] 
[46:14] to  be  followed  in  everything  I  say.  Uh
[46:17] 
[46:17] but  where  I  where  I  believe  that  I've
[46:19] 
[46:19] seen  something  that's  relevant  and  I
[46:20] 
[46:20] have  that  experience.  That's  where  I
[46:22] 
[46:22] want  to  that's  where  I  want  my  voice  to
[46:24] 
[46:24] be  heard.  Okay.  Okay.  That  was  very  very
[46:26] 
[46:26] interesting.  I  mean  I  had  so  many  bullet
[46:28] 
[46:28] points  and  and  questions  planned  but  I
[46:30] 
[46:30] mean  you're  you're  you're  answering  so
[46:32] 
[46:32] extensively.  So  when  we're  just  touching
[46:34] 
[46:34] upon,  you  know,  a  fraction  of  things,
[46:36] 
[46:36] but  but  thank  you  for  for  being  honest
[46:37] 
[46:37] about  these  things.  It's  it's  very
[46:39] 
[46:39] interesting  and  I  I  want  I  want  to  move
[46:40] 
[46:40] a  bit  over  to  the  the  more  the  VC
[46:42] 
[46:42] landscape.  I  mean,  you're  a  part  of
[46:44] 
[46:44] ecosystem  as  well  as  you  know  startups
[46:46] 
[46:46] are  uh  and  I  mean  uh  you  also  have  been
[46:49] 
[46:49] here  for  for  a  long  time  present.  I  want
[46:52] 
[46:52] to  ask  you  John  u  now  you're  raising
[46:55] 
[46:55] your  fourth  fund.  Uh,  I  mean,  you  said
[46:57] 
[46:57] it  was  easier  to  raise  a  fund  now,  but
[46:58] 
[46:58] that's  maybe  also  because  of  your  own
[47:00] 
[47:00] track  record,  but  I  mean,  how  has  the
[47:02] 
[47:02] the  VC  landscape  changed  since  you
[47:04] 
[47:04] started  in  in  Spain  and  Europe?  What  do
[47:07] 
[47:07] you  think?  Is  is  it  more  vibrant?
[47:08] 
[47:08] There's  more  people  present,  more  more
[47:11] 
[47:11] VCs  active,  right?  I  think  I  think  there
[47:14] 
[47:14] there  are  more  VCs  active  in  Spain
[47:17] 
[47:17] against  10  years  ago  because  there  were
[47:19] 
[47:19] very  few  we  were  very  few  people  around.
[47:21] 
[47:21] Yeah.
[47:22] 
[47:22] Um  I  I  wouldn't  say  that  the  number  of
[47:25] 
[47:25] VCs  operating  VCs  in  in  Europe  has
[47:28] 
[47:28] changed.  Okay.  I  I  was  actually  looking
[47:30] 
[47:30] at  some  statistics  recently  and  and
[47:33] 
[47:33] actually  the  number  of  VC  uh  active  VCs
[47:37] 
[47:37] in  in  Europe  has  decreased  in  size
[47:40] 
[47:40] really.  Why  do  you  think  that?  Oh  well
[47:43] 
[47:43] because  uh  the  emergence  of  and  the
[47:46] 
[47:46] funding  possibilities  of  VCs  is  very
[47:48] 
[47:48] much  tied  to  the  economic  environment.  I
[47:51] 
[47:51] think  that  there  have  been  some
[47:53] 
[47:53] downturns
[47:55] 
[47:55] uh  in  the  environment  over  the  past  10
[47:57] 
[47:57] years  and  the  VC  industry  is  one  that
[48:00] 
[48:00] gets  refreshed  every  5  to  10  years.  So
[48:03] 
[48:03] you  see  for  example  if  you  take  London
[48:05] 
[48:06] which  is  probably  the  largest  uh
[48:07] 
[48:07] ecosystem  in  Europe  and  you  look  at  the
[48:09] 
[48:09] people  that  were  active  in  2006  and  you
[48:14] 
[48:14] compare  this  list  with  the  list  uh  for
[48:16] 
[48:16] 2017  you  would  see  a  lot  of  differences.
[48:19] 
[48:19] you  won't  see  uh  more  players,  but  you
[48:22] 
[48:22] would  see  a  lot  of  different  players  and
[48:24] 
[48:24] some  others  that  are  not  around  anymore.
[48:26] 
[48:26] Okay.  Like  startups,  some  startups  are
[48:29] 
[48:29] not  around  anymore.  VCs  are  not  around
[48:31] 
[48:31] anymore  either.  So  yeah,  Spain  is
[48:33] 
[48:33] different  because  I  think  we  started,  we
[48:35] 
[48:36] were  at  the  early  beginnings  of  the
[48:38] 
[48:38] industry  10  years  ago  and  now  obviously
[48:41] 
[48:41] we  have  seen  uh  more  players  coming  in
[48:44] 
[48:44] at  different  stages,  right?  I  don't
[48:46] 
[48:46] think  that  we  see  a  lot  of  them  in  the
[48:47] 
[48:47] uh  say  cycle  stage  where  active  or
[48:51] 
[48:52] ourselves  operate.  I  think that  this  is
[48:53] 
[48:54] still  a  reduced  number  of  players.  But
[48:56] 
[48:56] if  you  look  at  the  earlier  stages,  I
[48:59] 
[48:59] think  that  there  are  significant  number
[49:00] 
[49:00] of  people  that  can  now  deploy  anything
[49:02] 
[49:02] between
[49:03] 
[49:03] 300,000  and  and  a  million  euros  right  to
[49:06] 
[49:06] start  with.  And  I  mean  what  is  your
[49:09] 
[49:09] reference?  I  want  to  ask  both  of  you
[49:10] 
[49:10] this  but  what  what  are  your  reference
[49:12] 
[49:12] globally  BC  firms?  I  mean,  who  are  you
[49:15] 
[49:15] looking  to  as  like  a  good  example  of  a
[49:19] 
[49:19] good  VC  apart  from  yourself?  I  would
[49:20] 
[49:20] expect.  I  think  that  there  are  some  good
[49:23] 
[49:23] examples  or  at  least  people  that  we
[49:26] 
[49:26] know,  that  we're  following  in  Europe
[49:28] 
[49:28] that  that  we  like  what  they  do.  We  we
[49:30] 
[49:30] like  groups  that  have  a  uh  strong  thesis
[49:34] 
[49:34] and  that  are  able  to  hold  against  the
[49:37] 
[49:37] wind.  Yeah.  their  their  their  thesis
[49:39] 
[49:39] because  we  think  that  in  the  long  term
[49:41] 
[49:41] uh  say  a  good  thesis  and  a  good
[49:44] 
[49:44] execution  on  that  thesis  is  what  will
[49:46] 
[49:46] make  you  successful  in  return  terms  and
[49:48] 
[49:48] also  successful  next  time  you  go  and
[49:50] 
[49:50] race.  Exactly.  Right.  So  there  are  a  few
[49:54] 
[49:54] number  of  players  that  I  think  are
[49:56] 
[49:56] proving  today  in  Europe  that  can  hold  to
[49:59] 
[49:59] a  to  a  strategy  both  in  in  the  UK  and
[50:02] 
[50:02] Germany  and  some  some  in  France,  right?
[50:04] 
[50:04] that  I  think  are  the  people  that  will  be
[50:06] 
[50:06] dominating  the  scene  over  the  next  5
[50:07] 
[50:08] years.
[50:09] 
[50:09] Blair,  do  you  have  any  names?  What  do
[50:10] 
[50:10] you  think?  No,  I  mean  I'll  give  you
[50:12] 
[50:12] names  if  you  want.  I  I  think  that  0.9
[50:15] 
[50:15] guys  Yeah.  are  are  a  good  example  of
[50:17] 
[50:17] that.  They  know  what  they're  doing.  They
[50:20] 
[50:20] don't  want  to  grow  the  funds  the  the
[50:23] 
[50:23] race  just  because  just  for  the  sake  of
[50:26] 
[50:26] it.  I  think  that  they  understand  very
[50:28] 
[50:28] well  what  their  business  is,  what
[50:29] 
[50:29] they're  good  at,  and  they  are  executing
[50:30] 
[50:30] really  well  on  that.  And  I  think that
[50:32] 
[50:32] they're  example  of  for  uh  a  number  of
[50:35] 
[50:35] people,  right?
[50:37] 
[50:37] Uh  there  are  two  or  three  new  groups  in
[50:40] 
[50:40] in  in  London  that  we  like  notion  is  one
[50:43] 
[50:43] passion  capital  is  another  one.  So
[50:45] 
[50:45] people  with  whom  we  have  co-invested
[50:48] 
[50:48] uh  that  that  do  great  and  and  that  have
[50:51] 
[50:51] a  similar  approach.  So  they  are  thesis
[50:53] 
[50:53] driven  people.  Right.  Huh.  and  and  Blair
[50:56] 
[50:56] no  I  mean  rather  than  giving  you  names  I
[50:57] 
[50:58] mean  I  think  the  interesting  thing  is
[50:58] 
[50:58] when  you  look  across  the  sector  is  to
[51:00] 
[51:00] pick  up  the  best  practices  and  see  what
[51:02] 
[51:02] what  do  people  do  that  uh  that  we  either
[51:05] 
[51:05] have  to  adapt  to  because  entrepreneurs
[51:08] 
[51:08] are  looking  for  other  things  to  this
[51:09] 
[51:10] whole  question  about  added  services
[51:12] 
[51:12] right  do  you  set  up  an  internal  HR  team
[51:14] 
[51:14] do  you  do  marketing  for  them  yes  uh  we
[51:17] 
[51:17] we  won't  do  that  because  we  think  I  mean
[51:21] 
[51:21] entrepreneurs  can  have  the  flexibility
[51:23] 
[51:23] to  do  that  I  think  it  works  on  a  certain
[51:25] 
[51:25] depending  where  you  are.  Yeah.  If  you're
[51:26] 
[51:26] maybe  really  seed  or  you're  more  the
[51:28] 
[51:28] accelerator,  yeah,  it  could  help.  But
[51:31] 
[51:31] once  you  start  investing  in  a  rounds  and
[51:33] 
[51:33] companies  with  50  or  100  employees,  yes,
[51:36] 
[51:36] the  value  that  you  can  offer  to  that
[51:38] 
[51:38] company,  I  would  say  for  us  it's  it's
[51:41] 
[51:41] not  one  of  our  our  cornerstones.  Mhm.
[51:43] 
[51:43] Mhm.  Um  so  there  are  certain  trends  you
[51:45] 
[51:46] have  to  look  and  see  okay  what  which
[51:47] 
[51:47] funds  are  doing  it  well  and  and  when  you
[51:48] 
[51:48] look  at  the  funds  you  say  well  actually
[51:51] 
[51:51] not  many  funds  who  are  performing  well
[51:52] 
[51:52] or  well  positioned  necessarily  have
[51:53] 
[51:54] these  these  services.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Why  is
[51:55] 
[51:56] that?  So  so  you  you  wouldn't  move
[51:58] 
[51:58] further  into  doing  more  for  the  startups
[52:01] 
[52:01] in  terms  No.  I  mean  I  think  it's
[52:02] 
[52:02] something  that  you  always  consider.
[52:04] 
[52:04] Yeah.  Yeah.  And  you  always  look  and  say
[52:06] 
[52:06] well  what  services  could  we  offer  that
[52:07] 
[52:07] make  sense?  Yeah.  Yeah.  Um  being  a
[52:10] 
[52:10] recruitment  agency  is  one  of  the
[52:12] 
[52:12] services  that  that  many  funds  offer.  Um
[52:15] 
[52:15] uh  what  do  you  think  about  that?  What  do
[52:16] 
[52:16] you  think  about  recruiting  for  startups?
[52:18] 
[52:18] I  mean  you  because  you  both  have  a  huge
[52:20] 
[52:20] network.  I  mean  you're  talking  with  so
[52:21] 
[52:21] many  people.  I  mean  you  know  a  lot  of
[52:23] 
[52:23] players.  Yeah.  Well  one  thing  is  doing
[52:25] 
[52:25] it  as  a  sort  of  okay  uh  I  can  help  you
[52:27] 
[52:27] here.  The  other  thing  is  saying  I'm
[52:28] 
[52:28] going  to  find  that  person  for  you.
[52:30] 
[52:30] Exactly.  And  I  think  there's  two  there
[52:32] 
[52:32] two  different  things.  I  think  one  is
[52:33] 
[52:33] more  the  okay  I  will  obviously  help  you
[52:35] 
[52:35] with  my  network  and  the  other  is  I'm
[52:37] 
[52:37] going  to  off  I'm  going to  sell  your
[52:38] 
[52:38] service  as  part  of  my  my  my  investment
[52:40] 
[52:40] right  I  I  I  think  that  the  more  you  go
[52:43] 
[52:43] into  niches  and  the  more  you  go  into
[52:45] 
[52:45] vertical  fun  the  let's  say  the  more  you
[52:48] 
[52:48] dominate  a  particular  sector  the  easier
[52:51] 
[52:51] it  will  be  to  to  offer  that  service
[52:54] 
[52:54] because  your  network  becomes  more
[52:55] 
[52:55] focused  everything  becomes  more  focused
[52:57] 
[52:57] but  I  still  think  it's  a  it's  a  step
[52:59] 
[52:59] away  from  actually  saying  you're  going
[53:01] 
[53:01] to  you're  going  do  it  uh  for  the  company
[53:04] 
[53:04] and  I  mean  would  you  raising  another
[53:06] 
[53:06] fund  would  you  be  more  specific  in  your
[53:07] 
[53:07] strategy  uh  towards  better  verticals  I
[53:10] 
[53:10] mean  we're  mentioning  0.9  for  example
[53:12] 
[53:12] that  are  very  specific  on  SAS  I  mean  uh
[53:15] 
[53:15] I  mean  this  to  both  of  you  going  forward
[53:17] 
[53:17] is  it  is  it  a  strength  being  more
[53:18] 
[53:18] specific  going  forward  do  you  think  I
[53:20] 
[53:20] think  it  it  can  be  a  strength  being  more
[53:22] 
[53:22] specific  um  because  of  the  the  natural
[53:25] 
[53:25] let's  say  interactions  within  verticals
[53:28] 
[53:28] right  um  for  us  we're  in  that  that  let's
[53:32] 
[53:32] say  moment  of  of  designing  what  that
[53:33] 
[53:34] that  strategy  will  look  like.  Uh  we  know
[53:36] 
[53:36] where  we've  come  from.  We  can't  suddenly
[53:38] 
[53:38] become  a  a  fund  doing  something  totally
[53:40] 
[53:40] different.  Um  you  have  to  have  a  say  you
[53:43] 
[53:44] have  to  have  a  line  that  continues.  No,
[53:45] 
[53:45] some  sort  of  thread  that  goes  through.
[53:47] 
[53:47] Yeah.  So  we  can't  suddenly  just  say
[53:49] 
[53:49] we're  not  doing  anything  like  we  did
[53:50] 
[53:50] before  and  do  something  totally
[53:51] 
[53:51] different.  Um  so  there'll  be  some
[53:53] 
[53:53] similarities  of  course  but  I  doubt  it's
[53:56] 
[53:56] going  to  be  exactly  the  same.  Yeah.
[53:57] 
[53:57] Because  we  have  to  evolve.  We  have  to
[53:59] 
[53:59] evolve  and  look  and  see  what  the
[54:00] 
[54:00] market's  asking  for.  Right.  Right.  I
[54:02] 
[54:02] mean  can  you  tell  explain  a  bit  further
[54:04] 
[54:04] with  your  new  fund?  Uh  what  kind  of  are
[54:07] 
[54:07] you  looking  to  any  particular  sector  or
[54:09] 
[54:09] or  vertical?
[54:11] 
[54:11] Um  well  the  there  there  are  many  things
[54:13] 
[54:13] that  we  would  not  do.  We  wouldn't  do  uh
[54:16] 
[54:16] hardware.  We  wouldn't  do  professional
[54:19] 
[54:19] services.  Uh  so  there  are  many  things  we
[54:21] 
[54:21] wouldn't  do  e-commerce.  So  there  are
[54:24] 
[54:24] many  things  that  we  would  not  do  inside
[54:26] 
[54:26] what  we  would  what  we  would  do.  I  think
[54:27] 
[54:27] that  we  look  for  one  speci  specific
[54:29] 
[54:29] thing  which  is  called  capital
[54:30] 
[54:30] efficiency.  So  our  new  investment  thesis
[54:33] 
[54:33] for  for  the  new  fund  is  all  around
[54:35] 
[54:35] capital  efficiency.  This  means  raising
[54:38] 
[54:38] the  right  amount  of  money  at  each  stage
[54:41] 
[54:41] and  making  sure  that  by  the  time  this
[54:43] 
[54:43] money  goes  away  there  is  there  are
[54:46] 
[54:46] options  for  the  company  that  you  are  not
[54:48] 
[54:48] suddenly  inside  a  tunnel  that  is  10
[54:51] 
[54:51] miles  long  and  there  are  no  uh  say  ways
[54:54] 
[54:54] to  get  out.  Right.  Right.  because  I
[54:56] 
[54:56] think  this  kills  companies,  distorts,
[54:58] 
[54:58] cap  tables.
[55:00] 
[55:00] Um  so  with  this  uh  say  basic  principle
[55:05] 
[55:05] if  if  you  ask  what  are  the  verticals  or
[55:08] 
[55:08] spaces  where  we  think  this  principle  can
[55:10] 
[55:10] be  best  applied.  Yes,  I  think  that  uh
[55:12] 
[55:12] enterprise  software  with  uh  say  SAS
[55:15] 
[55:16] model  makes  sense  generally.  So  can  be
[55:19] 
[55:19] can  fit  into  this  principle.  I  think
[55:22] 
[55:22] that  there  are  other  um
[55:25] 
[55:25] um  consumer  plays  in  the  digital  space
[55:28] 
[55:28] that  are  not  physical  but  digital  that
[55:30] 
[55:30] that  are  that  can  be  that  can  prove  uh
[55:34] 
[55:34] the  viability  of  a  business  model  as
[55:36] 
[55:36] Blair  was  saying  before  with  a  moderate
[55:39] 
[55:39] amount  of  capital  without  burying  you
[55:42] 
[55:42] into  say  under  piles  of  capital  right
[55:45] 
[55:45] which  is  I  think  bad  for  virtually
[55:47] 
[55:47] everyone  except  very  few  selected  cases
[55:50] 
[55:50] in  which  We  don't  bet  at  the  beginning
[55:52] 
[55:52] because  it's  very  hard  to  see  Facebook
[55:55] 
[55:55] at  series  C  plus.  Right.  Right.  So,
[55:58] 
[55:58] we're  not  doing  this.  And  uh  I  mean  we
[56:00] 
[56:00] need  to  stop  at  the  point  here,  but  it
[56:02] 
[56:02] would  be  a  shame  not  to  ask  you  because
[56:04] 
[56:04] you're  looking  at  so  many  different
[56:05] 
[56:05] companies  and  entrepreneurs.  It  would  be
[56:06] 
[56:06] a  shame  not  to  ask  you  what  you  think
[56:07] 
[56:07] about  you  know  the  future  uh  here  in
[56:10] 
[56:10] Spain  in  terms  of  you  know  what  kind  of
[56:13] 
[56:13] sectors  are  growing  rapidly,  what  kind
[56:15] 
[56:15] of  startups  will  you  know  prevail  the
[56:16] 
[56:16] next  years.  I  mean  here  we  have  a  few
[56:18] 
[56:18] companies  we  have  we  are  you  know
[56:20] 
[56:20] experiencing  growth  in  the  B2B  SAS  space
[56:24] 
[56:24] factorial  keep  is  companies  that  are
[56:25] 
[56:25] growing  organically  very  fast  and  that's
[56:27] 
[56:27] something  that  we've  picked  up  on  like
[56:29] 
[56:29] personally  but  I  mean  you  guys  I  mean  is
[56:32] 
[56:32] this  something  you're  seeing  as  well  or
[56:33] 
[56:34] what  kind  of  sectors  or  verticals  are
[56:36] 
[56:36] you  seeing  growing  fast  in  Spain?
[56:42] 
[56:42] Um  I  I  think  that  our  experience,  our
[56:45] 
[56:45] observation  is  that  uh  the  Spanish
[56:47] 
[56:47] ecosystem  has  uh  in  terms  of  the  quality
[56:51] 
[56:51] of  the  entrepreneurial  projects  has
[56:53] 
[56:53] significantly  improved  over  the  past  uh
[56:55] 
[56:55] 10  years,  right?  Uh  but  it's  not  where  I
[57:01] 
[57:01] think  we  all  want  it  to  be  yet.  Uh  I
[57:03] 
[57:03] think  that  uh  this  has  to  do  less  with
[57:06] 
[57:06] the  amount  of  money  available  or  how
[57:09] 
[57:09] much  the  public  institutions  can  put
[57:12] 
[57:12] into  the  industry.  Uh  it's  this  has  to
[57:15] 
[57:15] do  more  with  culture  and  education  and
[57:17] 
[57:17] school.  Uh  so  changing  or  improving  the
[57:20] 
[57:20] ecosystem  takes  time  and  money  won't
[57:23] 
[57:23] make  it  faster.  That's  that's  that's  our
[57:25] 
[57:25] observation.  So  money  is  around  when  the
[57:29] 
[57:29] quality  of  the  projects  happens  as  as  it
[57:32] 
[57:32] this  is  a  free  market  as  it  has  always
[57:34] 
[57:34] been  and  the  fact  that  you  pour
[57:36] 
[57:36] artificially  suddenly  piles  of  new  money
[57:39] 
[57:39] into  the  business  won't  make  the  rate  of
[57:42] 
[57:42] success  higher.  Yeah,  it  takes  time.  I
[57:46] 
[57:46] think  that  as  I  said  we  have  seen  a  lot
[57:48] 
[57:48] of  improvement
[57:50] 
[57:50] uh  but  uh  at  a  reasonable  pace.  So  we
[57:54] 
[57:54] should  not  get  crazy  about  what  will
[57:56] 
[57:56] happen  in  the  next  5  years  there  have
[57:59] 
[57:59] been  successes  over  the  past  2  or  3
[58:01] 
[58:01] years  successful  exits  which  are  good
[58:03] 
[58:03] signs  that  we  are  building  something  but
[58:07] 
[58:07] the  this  takes  time  so  we  still  in  Spain
[58:10] 
[58:10] for example  and  I  compare  what  uh  I'm
[58:13] 
[58:13] responsible  uh  for  the  Spanish  for  the
[58:15] 
[58:16] investments  in  Spain  inside  my  group  so
[58:18] 
[58:18] I  when  I  discuss  and  compare  with  what
[58:21] 
[58:21] my  partners  in  London  or  Boston  are
[58:22] 
[58:22] experiencing  I  think  we  are  still
[58:24] 
[58:24] lagging  behind  significantly  because  we
[58:27] 
[58:27] don't  have  a  steady  pipeline  of  high
[58:30] 
[58:30] quality  projects  in  Spain  yet.  When  I
[58:32] 
[58:32] compare  what  I  see  and  what  my
[58:35] 
[58:35] challenges  are  against  my  uh  what  my
[58:38] 
[58:38] partners  have  or  experience  in  their  uh
[58:40] 
[58:40] respective  ecosystems,  I  see  that  they
[58:43] 
[58:43] could  invest  in  highquality  companies  at
[58:45] 
[58:45] least  once  a  month.  Really?  And  and  we
[58:47] 
[58:47] don't  see  that  in  Spain  yet.  Uh  so  it  it
[58:51] 
[58:51] goes  in  waves,  right?  in  waves  that  have
[58:53] 
[58:53] lack  times  in  between.  So  we  had  a  new
[58:56] 
[58:56] fund  we  had  a  good  2016  we  invested  in
[58:59] 
[58:59] four  companies  and  then  in  for  2017  we
[59:04] 
[59:04] said  wow  there's  another  for  coming.  No
[59:07] 
[59:07] so  we've  been  dry  for  maybe  6  n  months.
[59:10] 
[59:10] Yeah.  So  now  it  looks  like  it  it's
[59:12] 
[59:12] picking  up  again.  Okay.  So  the  the  the
[59:15] 
[59:15] high  quality  deal  flow  is  not  coming
[59:17] 
[59:17] steady  yet.  Yeah,  I  think  that  by  the
[59:20] 
[59:20] time  series  A  investors  like  active
[59:23] 
[59:23] ourselves  see  that  that  we  have  a  steady
[59:26] 
[59:26] regular  deal  flow  uh  of  high  quality
[59:29] 
[59:29] coming  in  then  I  think  we  will  say  that
[59:31] 
[59:31] Spain  has  matured.  Yeah.  As  a  technology
[59:34] 
[59:34] ecosystem  but  at  least  from  our
[59:36] 
[59:36] observation  this  hasn't  happened  yet.
[59:37] 
[59:37] Wow.  And  I  mean  what's  your  take  uh  I
[59:40] 
[59:40] mean  in  terms  of  maturity  but  also  in
[59:42] 
[59:42] terms  of  I  mean  verticals  uh  doing  well
[59:45] 
[59:45] in  Spain.  I  mean,  I  think  that  the  the
[59:47] 
[59:47] verticals  that  tend  to  do  well  in  Spain
[59:48] 
[59:48] are  the  ones  that  are  easy  to  start.
[59:51] 
[59:51] Why?  Because  you  have  lots  of  people
[59:52] 
[59:52] wanting  to  start  businesses.  You  have  a
[59:54] 
[59:54] very  wide  bottom  of  the  pyramid.  So
[59:56] 
[59:56] whether  those  are  SAS  businesses,
[59:57] 
[59:57] whether  there  are  something  consumer  or
[59:59] 
[59:59] app  or  um  something  which  with  limited
[60:03] 
[60:03] resources  you  can  get  up  and  running.
[60:05] 
[60:05] Right.  Right.  Um  but  I  would  agree  with
[60:07] 
[60:07] Jordy  that  that  pyramid  becomes  very
[60:09] 
[60:09] narrow  quite  quickly.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Um  so
[60:11] 
[60:12] so  the  ones  you  see  in  Spain  are  ones
[60:13] 
[60:13] which  are  two  three  four  people  can
[60:16] 
[60:16] start  with  an  idea  right  um  and  doesn't
[60:20] 
[60:20] require  that  much  that  many  resources  at
[60:23] 
[60:24] the  beginning  to  get  off  the  ground
[60:25] 
[60:25] right  um  which  covers  a  lot
[60:28] 
[60:28] there  are  a  lot  of  models  which  which
[60:29] 
[60:29] fit  that  description  um  but  these  sort
[60:33] 
[60:33] of  two  three  men  projects  um  that  then
[60:35] 
[60:35] become  five  or  six  men  then  become  maybe
[60:38] 
[60:38] 10  Yeah,
[60:40] 
[60:40] keeping  that  dynamic  going  as  they  grow
[60:43] 
[60:43] and  getting  to  be  something  that's  let's
[60:44] 
[60:44] say  VC  investable  which  doesn't  mean
[60:47] 
[60:47] successful  just  means  VC  investable.
[60:49] 
[60:49] Sure.  Um  uh  is  is  the  challenge.  Okay.
[60:52] 
[60:52] Yeah.  I  think  that  something  that  helps
[60:55] 
[60:55] or  supports  uh  the  emergence  of  uh  new
[60:59] 
[60:59] companies
[61:01] 
[61:01] with  with  high  potential  in  a  specific
[61:03] 
[61:03] vertical  is  the  uh  sophistication  of
[61:05] 
[61:05] that  particular  industry  in  Spain  for
[61:08] 
[61:08] example.  So  we  are  seeing  we've  invested
[61:11] 
[61:11] and  we  are  seeing  continue  to  see  uh
[61:14] 
[61:14] offline  retail  technology  companies
[61:16] 
[61:16] because  in  and  we've  invested  in  two  of
[61:18] 
[61:18] them  recently  in  in  Spain  because  the
[61:21] 
[61:21] retail  industry  in  in  Spain  has  a  number
[61:24] 
[61:24] of  international  champions  in  in  some
[61:27] 
[61:27] selected  subverticals  like  fashion  for
[61:28] 
[61:28] example  that  actually  are  very
[61:31] 
[61:31] sophisticated  and  that  are  pulling  local
[61:35] 
[61:35] technology  to  develop.  Mhm.  So  for
[61:38] 
[61:38] example,  we  just  invested  in  a  team  uh
[61:41] 
[61:41] nexttail  in  Madrid  that  is  founded  by
[61:46] 
[61:46] people  that  were  responsible  for
[61:47] 
[61:47] logistics  at  Zara  at  Inditex  globally.
[61:50] 
[61:50] Okay.  Uh  and  they've  seen  that  well  I
[61:53] 
[61:53] heard  the  other  day  that  Index  has  600
[61:56] 
[61:56] software  developers  in  house  producing
[61:59] 
[61:59] software  for  them.  Well  Inditex  in  a
[62:01] 
[62:01] number  of  say  sequences  in  the  value
[62:03] 
[62:03] chain  is  world  benchmark.  So  everyone  is
[62:05] 
[62:05] seeing  at  what  sure  index  does.  So  these
[62:08] 
[62:08] people  that  have  that  are  world  class
[62:10] 
[62:10] professionals  are  able  to  actually  put
[62:12] 
[62:12] together  a  company  and  try  to  offer  to
[62:14] 
[62:14] all  the  other  zeras  in  the  world  the
[62:16] 
[62:16] things  that  Zara  is  doing  right.  So  I
[62:19] 
[62:19] think  that  uh  retail  is  one.  Yeah.  I
[62:22] 
[62:22] think  that  tourism
[62:24] 
[62:24] is  another  one  where  we're  seeing  some
[62:27] 
[62:27] uh  travel  and  leisure  if  you  want.  We're
[62:29] 
[62:29] seeing  some  action  and  good  companies
[62:31] 
[62:31] also  because  I  think  that  tourism
[62:34] 
[62:34] represents  like  14  15%  of  our  GMP.  So  um
[62:38] 
[62:38] it's  another  industry  where  companies
[62:41] 
[62:41] born  in  Spain  can  excel,  right?  I  mean
[62:44] 
[62:44] uh  just  to  to to  end  on  something  more
[62:47] 
[62:47] futuristic,  but  artificial  intelligence
[62:49] 
[62:49] is  something  that  I  mean  non  not  many
[62:52] 
[62:52] countries  are  famous  for  doing
[62:53] 
[62:53] artificial  intelligence.  Well,  I  mean
[62:55] 
[62:55] it's  a  very  out  there  theme,  but  I  I
[62:56] 
[62:56] heard  in  an  interview  that  more  and  more
[62:59] 
[62:59] startups  are  getting  asked  by  VCs,  what
[63:01] 
[63:01] is  your  artificial  intelligence
[63:03] 
[63:03] strategy?  Is  is  this  a  very  weird
[63:06] 
[63:06] question  to  ask  as  a  VC  or  or  are  you
[63:08] 
[63:08] thinking  about  these  things  yourself?
[63:09] 
[63:09] I'm  I'm  curious.  Yeah,  I  mean  I  think  uh
[63:13] 
[63:13] artificial  intelligence  uh  is  a  useful
[63:16] 
[63:16] tool  uh  for  some  businesses.  Uh  it's  a
[63:19] 
[63:19] bit  like  big  data.  No,  big  data  was  a
[63:21] 
[63:21] thing  to  talk  about  maybe  two  years  ago.
[63:23] 
[63:23] That  was  everybody  talks  about  big  data
[63:25] 
[63:25] and  how  you're  going  to  sell  big  data
[63:26] 
[63:26] and  analyze  it.  And  I  think  uh  at  the
[63:29] 
[63:29] moment  it's  kind  of  chatbot.  Everybody
[63:30] 
[63:30] needs  a  chatbot  in  order  to  have  a  good
[63:32] 
[63:32] company.  And  if  if  you  look  behind  that
[63:34] 
[63:34] as  to  what  it  actually  does  um  what's
[63:38] 
[63:38] the  added  value?  Why  why  is  this  going
[63:39] 
[63:39] to  help  your  business?  Yeah.  So  like  AI
[63:42] 
[63:42] has  a  has  a  role  to  play  in  some
[63:43] 
[63:44] businesses  um  as  do  chat  bots  uh  but
[63:48] 
[63:48] chatbot  doesn't  have  to  be  sophisticated
[63:50] 
[63:50] or  not.  So  so  I  think  um  as  a  question
[63:54] 
[63:54] to  ask  any  entrepreneur  it's  a  bit
[63:55] 
[63:55] weird.  Yeah.  from  from  my  point  of  view
[63:59] 
[63:59] um  if  they  talk  about  it  for  me  it's
[64:01] 
[64:01] about  understanding  what  does  that  mean
[64:02] 
[64:02] okay  no  they're  just  throwing  in  catch
[64:04] 
[64:04] words  or  catchphrases  to  see  okay  well  I
[64:07] 
[64:07] have  to  talk  about  chat  bots  AI  big  data
[64:10] 
[64:10] uh
[64:12] 
[64:12] no  yeah  but  let's  just  have  a  kind  of
[64:14] 
[64:14] conversation  about  what  the  business  is
[64:16] 
[64:16] going  to  be  doing  in  a  couple  of  years
[64:17] 
[64:17] yeah  do  you  think  the  same  yeah  we  don't
[64:19] 
[64:19] have  an  AI  strategy  no  I  think  that  this
[64:22] 
[64:22] should  be  embedded  in  whatever  a  company
[64:25] 
[64:25] does  using  in in  wise  way  the  data  that
[64:29] 
[64:29] is  available  and  trying  to  produce
[64:31] 
[64:31] better  products  for  your  customers.  Wow.
[64:34] 
[64:34] No,  I  have  to  say  we're  looking  forward
[64:35] 
[64:35] to  to  see  uh  you  know  what  kind  of
[64:37] 
[64:37] companies  you're  you  discover  and
[64:39] 
[64:39] support  and  and  back  in  the  next  years.
[64:41] 
[64:41] Uh  thank  you  both  both  Blair  and  Georgie
[64:44] 
[64:44] for  coming.  Uh  yeah,  thank  you.  Thank
[64:46] 
[64:46] you  for  having  us.
[64:49] 
[64:49] [Music]