Hacker Schools vs. Universities is there room for both? — vídeo y transcripción

[00:00] [Music]
[00:15] 
[00:15] Welcome  to  the  ITN  podcast.  I'm  Synindra
[00:18] 
[00:18] Hoplan.  Uh  with  me  today,  I  have  three
[00:20] 
[00:20] smart  guys  uh  to  discuss  today's  topic.
[00:23] 
[00:23] Hacker  schools  versus  universities.  Do
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[00:26] we  need  both?  Why  are  they  popping  up
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[00:29] around  Barcelona,  around  Europe,  around
[00:31] 
[00:31] the  world  and  and and  the  future?  What's
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[00:34] what's  in  it  for  the  future  of  education
[00:36] 
[00:36] for  developers?  Uh  so  to  give  their
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[00:39] insights  today,  we  have  uh  Maralier.
[00:41] 
[00:41] He's  a  podcaster  and  a  professor  at  UPE
[00:44] 
[00:44] uh  one  of  the  universities  in  Barcelona
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[00:46] producing  hundreds  of  young  developers
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[00:48] every  year.  Thank  you  for  being  here.
[00:49] 
[00:50] Thank  you  very  much.  Uh  on  the  other
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[00:51] side  of  the  table,  we  have  Marco,
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[00:54] director  of  hacker  school  Iron  Hack  in
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[00:56] Barcelona.  Welcome.  Thanks  for  inviting
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[00:58] us.  And  last  but  not  least,  we  have  Arol
[01:01] 
[01:01] Vinolas  with  CodeWorks,  a  fairly  new
[01:03] 
[01:03] hacker  school  here  in  Barcelona.  Good  to
[01:05] 
[01:05] have  you  with  us.  Yeah,  thank  you  very
[01:06] 
[01:06] much  for  inviting  us.  So,  uh,  to  start
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[01:09] off,  uh,  only  a  few  years  ago,
[01:11] 
[01:11] universities  had  the  monopoly  on
[01:14] 
[01:14] educating  developers.  Uh,  and,  uh,  if
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[01:17] you  wanted  to  be  a  developer,  you  you
[01:19] 
[01:19] had  to  go  through  a  university  program
[01:20] 
[01:20] or  you  had  to  teach  yourself,  basically.
[01:23] 
[01:23] Well,  that  that's  absolutely  not  true.
[01:25] 
[01:26] Oh,  absolutely  not  true.  Uh,  in  the  in
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[01:29] the  80s  and  in  the  '90s,  uh,  there  were
[01:32] 
[01:32] in  Barcelona  a  few  coding  schools.  Uh,
[01:35] 
[01:35] one  for  instance  was  uh  really  famous
[01:37] 
[01:37] was  called  Bite  and  we  had  a  very  few  uh
[01:41] 
[01:41] uh  some  schools.  It  were  correlated  with
[01:45] 
[01:45] the  demand  of  developers  in  Barcelona.
[01:47] 
[01:47] But  uh  but  what  we  have  uh  especially  uh
[01:51] 
[01:52] development  was  done  in  things  like
[01:53] 
[01:53] cobalt  and  things  like  uh  Clipper  and  C
[01:57] 
[01:58] and  and  Pascal  and  we  had  schools  uh
[02:01] 
[02:01] outside  of  the  university  teaching  how
[02:03] 
[02:04] to  how  to  code.  uh  it  was  not
[02:07] 
[02:07] systematized  like  uh  light  right  now.
[02:09] 
[02:09] The  demand  was  not  high  high  but  was  but
[02:12] 
[02:12] in  in  those  days  uh  development  was
[02:15] 
[02:15] really  well  paid  because  there  were
[02:18] 
[02:18] really  few  developers  and  the  the  and
[02:22] 
[02:22] computer  science  was  um  computers  were
[02:24] 
[02:24] entering  in  the  old  fields.  So  when  you
[02:27] 
[02:28] uh  enter  in  a  computer  with  a  computer
[02:30] 
[02:30] into  in in  a  company  the  the  the  amount
[02:34] 
[02:34] of  increase  uh  improvement  in  per
[02:36] 
[02:36] performance  was  outstanding.  So  the  the
[02:39] 
[02:39] developer  and  the  the  guy  or  the  or  the
[02:41] 
[02:42] women  who  was  able  to  to  use  that  tool.
[02:45] 
[02:45] Uh  it  it  provided  a  lot  huge  added
[02:48] 
[02:48] value.  And  then  we  had  the  university
[02:51] 
[02:51] who  started  uh  in  the  beginning  the  80s
[02:54] 
[02:54] we  didn't  have  a  degree  program  we  have
[02:56] 
[02:56] a  master's  program.  Then  we  uh  when  we
[02:58] 
[02:58] took  uh  ma  mathematics  degrees  and
[03:01] 
[03:02] physicians  uh  um  uh  degrees  in  phys  in
[03:05] 
[03:05] physics  and  uh  industrial  engineers  and
[03:08] 
[03:08] then  we  teach  them  computer  science.  It
[03:11] 
[03:11] was  in  the  in  the  mid80s  where  we  got
[03:13] 
[03:13] the  first  degrees  engineers  engineers  in
[03:17] 
[03:17] in  computer  science.  And  I  guess  you  can
[03:18] 
[03:18] say  that  uh  the  last  year's  demand  has
[03:21] 
[03:21] has  risen  a  lot  in  in  in  the  industry
[03:23] 
[03:23] and  that's  what's  causing  now  a  lot  of
[03:25] 
[03:26] the  the  hacker  schools  to  to  to  pop  up
[03:28] 
[03:28] around  Barcelona.  One  of  those  schools
[03:31] 
[03:31] is  is  Iron  Hack.  Uh  you're  not  only  in
[03:35] 
[03:35] Barcelona  but  in  in  Madrid  and  and  also
[03:36] 
[03:36] in  Miami.  Uh  how  how  are  you  doing  this
[03:40] 
[03:40] differently  from  from  the  universities?
[03:42] 
[03:42] Can  you  tell  a  bit  Mark?  Yeah,
[03:43] 
[03:44] absolutely.  And  I  think  the  main
[03:45] 
[03:45] difference  here  is  that  uh  university  is
[03:49] 
[03:49] a  system  that  it's  really  embedded  in
[03:51] 
[03:51] society  in  a  way.  So  as  we  were  like
[03:54] 
[03:54] talking  before  I  mean  incentives  are  not
[03:56] 
[03:56] there  in  order  to  provide  this  value  in
[03:59] 
[03:59] new  jobs  that  are  being  created  in  the
[04:01] 
[04:01] market  and  the  way  we  work  is  I  think
[04:03] 
[04:03] it's  different  right  I  mean  we  try  to
[04:06] 
[04:06] deeply  understand  what  the  industry
[04:08] 
[04:08] demands  right  now  and  which  positions
[04:10] 
[04:10] they  cannot  fill  like  from  the  usual
[04:13] 
[04:13] channels  and  then  we  go  we  work
[04:15] 
[04:15] backwards  and  then  we  try  to  provide
[04:17] 
[04:17] these  skills  to  uh  in  order  to  employ
[04:20] 
[04:20] these  people.  So  I  think  that  uh  yeah
[04:22] 
[04:22] sorry  the  mic.  So  um  I  think  that  like
[04:26] 
[04:26] our  I  don't  know  our  obsession  is  always
[04:29] 
[04:29] like  this  employ  like  it's  employment
[04:31] 
[04:31] rate  like  to  keep  it  up  to  like  put
[04:34] 
[04:34] through  our  programs  all  the  people  and
[04:36] 
[04:36] at  the  end  getting  a  job.  So  we  have
[04:38] 
[04:38] this  job  assistance  at  the  end.  So  it's
[04:40] 
[04:40] not  like  just  teaching  for  the  sake  of
[04:42] 
[04:42] teaching.  So  we  don't  see  as  education  I
[04:45] 
[04:46] don't  know  an  end  by  itself  like  I  don't
[04:48] 
[04:48] know  you  are  18  you're  18  and  you  what
[04:51] 
[04:51] do  you  do  okay  I  go  to  university
[04:53] 
[04:53] because  uh  it's  what  I  have  I'm  supposed
[04:55] 
[04:55] to  do  right  so  we  try  to  get  like  this
[04:59] 
[04:59] we  attach  this  and  we  see  education  as  a
[05:02] 
[05:02] medium  to  achieve  something  but  this
[05:05] 
[05:05] this  uh  hacker  schools  both  you  at  Iron
[05:07] 
[05:07] Hack  also  at  code  works  uh  you're  you're
[05:11] 
[05:11] not  giving  them  a  full  degree  this  is  a
[05:12] 
[05:12] threemon  month  program.  So  what  can  you
[05:15] 
[05:15] give  a  person  an  aspiring  developer  in
[05:18] 
[05:18] in  in  three  months?  Yeah.  Well  well  it's
[05:21] 
[05:21] like  okay  the  degree  is  is  a  title.
[05:24] 
[05:24] Okay.  Um  I  think  we  have  to  focus  more
[05:27] 
[05:27] on
[05:28] 
[05:28] on  what  uh  the  different  type  of  studies
[05:32] 
[05:32] are  giving  to  the  student  and  okay  the
[05:36] 
[05:36] university  uh  in  a  personal  perspective
[05:39] 
[05:39] I  spent  actually  it  was  a  five  years
[05:42] 
[05:42] course  and  I  spent  seven  years  because
[05:45] 
[05:45] uh  I  was  working  uh  since  the  first  year
[05:48] 
[05:48] and  I  remember  the  day  that  I  would  like
[05:52] 
[05:52] to  um  counted  credit  in  the  university
[05:57] 
[05:57] um  uh  when  I  was  working  and  I  in  the
[06:01] 
[06:01] first  year  I  I
[06:02] 
[06:03] I  went  to  the  I  don't  know  how  to  say
[06:06] 
[06:06] back  at  the  studies  he's  like  he's  the
[06:07] 
[06:08] headmaster  yeah  he's  the  headmaster  and
[06:11] 
[06:11] I  say  to  him  that  I  was  starting  um
[06:14] 
[06:14] working  in  a  company  in  a  developing
[06:16] 
[06:16] company  from  the  first  year  and
[06:19] 
[06:19] then  he  say  me  that  this  is  not
[06:22] 
[06:22] recommendable  at
[06:24] 
[06:24] And  okay,  I  was  I  was  uh  good  as  a
[06:28] 
[06:28] student  at  that  time,  but  I  was  I  I
[06:33] 
[06:33] wanted  to  practice  to  practice  um  uh
[06:37] 
[06:37] while  I  was  in  the  university.  So  I  find
[06:40] 
[06:40] I  found  out  that  in  my  time  in  the
[06:43] 
[06:43] university  I  find  myself  like  a  maker
[06:47] 
[06:47] and  the  university  uh  went  um  um  bring
[06:52] 
[06:52] myself  into  um  maker  thing.  Okay.  I  I I
[06:56] 
[06:56] was  priming  in  there  but  also  with  so
[06:59] 
[06:59] theoretical  things  that  maybe  I  was  not
[07:01] 
[07:01] interested  about.  Okay.  So  I  I  would
[07:05] 
[07:05] like  to  intervene  uh  and  and  and  say
[07:08] 
[07:08] same  something  first.  We  are  uh  I  think
[07:11] 
[07:11] that  we  we  should  be  really  clear  about
[07:13] 
[07:14] what  we're  talking  about.  we  talking
[07:15] 
[07:15] about  training  or  we  talking  about
[07:17] 
[07:17] education  because  uh  I  understand  that  a
[07:20] 
[07:20] boot  camp  is  a  really  useful  tool
[07:22] 
[07:22] because  we  need  uh  in  one  moment  in  time
[07:25] 
[07:25] we  need  uh  some  companies  that  need
[07:28] 
[07:28] quickly  in  3  months,  6  months  they  need
[07:31] 
[07:31] developers  the  uh  to  to  be  coding  and
[07:35] 
[07:35] and  building  things  actual  things  that
[07:37] 
[07:37] are  going  to  work  using  a  defined
[07:39] 
[07:39] technology  and  they  need  training  on
[07:41] 
[07:41] that  technology  and  and  it's  and  It's  a
[07:44] 
[07:44] must  to  have  this  kind  of  service
[07:47] 
[07:47] because  if  we  have  uh  for  instance  now
[07:49] 
[07:49] comes  for  comes  iOS  10  and  uh  there  are
[07:54] 
[07:54] I  don't  know  how  many  startups  in
[07:55] 
[07:55] Barcelona  working  uh  uh  in  iOS
[07:58] 
[07:58] development  and  they  will  need  all  their
[08:00] 
[08:00] apps  to  be  updated  to  iOS  10.  So  maybe
[08:03] 
[08:03] we  can  provide  with  a  a  a  crash  course
[08:06] 
[08:06] in  30  days  or  two  months  in  iOS  iOS  10
[08:10] 
[08:10] and  the  new  features  and  and  and  to  know
[08:13] 
[08:13] especially  how  to  port  and  take
[08:14] 
[08:14] advantage  of  the  new  features  and
[08:16] 
[08:16] understand  what  they  can  do  with  the  new
[08:18] 
[08:18] features  of  iOS  10  and  then  we  need  that
[08:21] 
[08:21] and  we  need  it  now  and  this  is
[08:24] 
[08:24] training.  The  problem  is  that  we  have
[08:26] 
[08:26] also
[08:28] 
[08:28] education  and  education  is  about  uh
[08:31] 
[08:31] building  a  person  who  has  a  lot  of
[08:34] 
[08:34] skills.  A  lot  of  skills  like  able  to
[08:37] 
[08:37] learn,  able  to  think  uh  in  a  critical
[08:39] 
[08:40] way  to  uh  communicate,  to  relate  to
[08:43] 
[08:43] others,  to  solve  problems  like  okay,  I
[08:45] 
[08:45] need  to  pass  this  course  and  this
[08:47] 
[08:47] professor  is  a  jerk.  How  do  I  do  that?
[08:51] 
[08:51] Um  and  there  are  a  lot  of  ways  you  can
[08:53] 
[08:54] cheat.  You  can  study  more.  You  can  you
[08:56] 
[08:56] can  look  for  previous  exams.  You  can  you
[09:00] 
[09:00] can  do  a  lot  of  things  to  pass.  If  you
[09:02] 
[09:02] solve  the  problem,  you  solve  the
[09:04] 
[09:04] problem.  So  we  have  education  and
[09:08] 
[09:08] training.  The  problem  that  we  have  is
[09:11] 
[09:11] that  training  by  its  definition  is
[09:14] 
[09:14] something  really
[09:15] 
[09:15] specialized  and  education.  I  think  that
[09:18] 
[09:18] we  need  to  teach  persons  that  are  able
[09:22] 
[09:22] to  adapt  especially  now  because  20  years
[09:25] 
[09:25] ago  when  you  went  to  the  university  you
[09:28] 
[09:28] had  access  to  knowledge  and  knowledge
[09:30] 
[09:30] was  in  only  in  the  university  and  only
[09:32] 
[09:32] in  the  library  and  the  way  to  access  the
[09:35] 
[09:35] contents  in  the  in  the  library  is  the
[09:37] 
[09:37] methodology  that  you  are  going  to  learn
[09:38] 
[09:38] in  the  university  but  now  knowledge  is
[09:41] 
[09:41] on  the  internet  and  you  have  Google  and
[09:43] 
[09:44] we  will  have  assistance  we  will  have
[09:45] 
[09:45] Cortana  we  will  have  city  we  will  have  a
[09:48] 
[09:48] lot  of  things  what  we  need  to  do  is  to
[09:50] 
[09:50] be  able  to  ask  the  right  questions  and
[09:52] 
[09:52] we  we  don't  understand  and  we  don't  have
[09:55] 
[09:55] a  good  education  will  not  be  able  to  ask
[09:57] 
[09:57] this  this  um  these  questions  but  do  you
[10:00] 
[10:00] do  you  feel  like  like  you're  educating
[10:03] 
[10:03] students  in  the  right  way  now  comes  the
[10:05] 
[10:05] problem  now  comes  the  problem  because  in
[10:07] 
[10:07] the  university  where  I  work  the  problem
[10:10] 
[10:10] is  that  the  teachers  the  professors  are
[10:14] 
[10:14] promoted  are  promoted  and  are  They  are
[10:17] 
[10:17] they  are  you  get  a  tenure  in  the
[10:20] 
[10:20] university  and  you  are  promoted  in  the
[10:21] 
[10:22] in  the  university  if  you  are  a  good
[10:24] 
[10:24] researcher  not  if  you  are  a  good  teacher
[10:27] 
[10:27] and  not  if  you  are  a  outstanding
[10:29] 
[10:30] professional  with  a  hu  huge  exper
[10:32] 
[10:32] experience  in  the  in  the  in  the  in
[10:35] 
[10:35] companies  there  are  a  few  private
[10:37] 
[10:37] universities  that  you  get  there  by  doing
[10:39] 
[10:39] that  but  it's  rare  it's  really  rare  to
[10:42] 
[10:42] find  a  professor  that  had  that  had  his
[10:45] 
[10:45] own  company  like  I  did  in  the  90s  it's
[10:47] 
[10:47] really  rare  only  maybe  2%  of  the
[10:51] 
[10:51] professors  the  rest  will  be  professors
[10:53] 
[10:53] that  they  ended  his  their  degree  they
[10:56] 
[10:56] did  a  master's  degree  they  did  a  PhD
[10:58] 
[10:58] they  did  a  postock  and  they  and  they
[11:00] 
[11:00] published  a  lot  of  papers  and  they  got  a
[11:03] 
[11:03] really  good  evaluation  and  they  became
[11:06] 
[11:06] professors  and  they  are  good  scientists
[11:08] 
[11:08] and  what  they  are
[11:11] 
[11:11] professors  specialize  in  fields  of  of
[11:14] 
[11:14] research  and  what  we  get  in  the
[11:16] 
[11:16] engineering  schools  is  that  we  don't
[11:18] 
[11:18] have  have  this  generalized  teaching.  We
[11:22] 
[11:22] have  also  specialized  teaching  when  we
[11:24] 
[11:24] have  new  new  uh  study  plans  which  are
[11:27] 
[11:27] being  negotiated  according  to  how  are
[11:30] 
[11:30] going  to  um  respect  the  balance  of  power
[11:34] 
[11:34] between  departments  in  our  universities.
[11:37] 
[11:37] You  have  these  departments  and  we  know
[11:39] 
[11:39] about  this.  So  this  is  really  important
[11:41] 
[11:41] to  be  there.  It's  not  about  what's  in
[11:43] 
[11:43] the  what  the  companies  need  and  I  am  a
[11:46] 
[11:46] researcher  and  if  I'm  doing  research  in
[11:49] 
[11:49] I  don't  know  I'm  deductive  databases
[11:52] 
[11:52] maybe  this  is  something  really  important
[11:53] 
[11:53] that  I  have  to  teach  to  to  my  students
[11:55] 
[11:55] even  if  nobody  uses  that  in  the
[11:58] 
[11:58] companies.  So  we  have  this  big  problem
[12:01] 
[12:01] because  all  the  incentives  in  the
[12:03] 
[12:03] university  are  towards  a  specialization
[12:05] 
[12:05] and  this  specialization  is  not  geared  up
[12:08] 
[12:09] to  create  the  creation  of
[12:11] 
[12:11] companies  and  then  we  have  people  who
[12:14] 
[12:14] know  really  well  things  about  science
[12:17] 
[12:17] and  research  and  they  know  they  don't
[12:19] 
[12:19] have  this  wide  education.
[12:23] 
[12:23] So,  so  and  and  then  we  have  we  go  to  the
[12:25] 
[12:25] companies  and  we  have  more  more
[12:29] 
[12:29] training.  We  have  more  training  in  in
[12:32] 
[12:32] the  US.  For  instance,  in  Germany,  in
[12:35] 
[12:35] Germany,  as  you  may  know,  when  students
[12:38] 
[12:38] finish  high  school,  they  are  encouraged
[12:41] 
[12:41] to  have  a  year  when  they  work  in  in
[12:45] 
[12:45] social
[12:46] 
[12:46] endeavors  and  they  grow  as  a  person  and
[12:49] 
[12:49] then  they  go  to  the  university.  So  why
[12:53] 
[12:53] why  do  so  many  people  choose  to  to
[12:55] 
[12:55] attend  these  these  uh  these  hacker
[12:57] 
[12:57] schools?  Is  it  is  it  because
[12:59] 
[12:59] universities  not  delivering  on  what  they
[13:02] 
[13:02] promise  or  can  you  claim?  Yeah,  I  mean
[13:05] 
[13:05] there  are  two  debates  here.  I  mean  first
[13:06] 
[13:06] of  all  like  the  degree  versus  job  uh
[13:09] 
[13:09] tension  here  that  I  mean  the  moment
[13:13] 
[13:13] everybody  has  a  degree  the  value  of  a
[13:15] 
[13:15] degree  like  leans  toward  zero.  I  mean
[13:17] 
[13:17] this  I  mean  makes  sense  right?  I  mean  if
[13:20] 
[13:20] in  the  20s  if  you  are  I  don't  know  if
[13:23] 
[13:23] you  are  a  medical  degree  and  you  are  a
[13:25] 
[13:25] doctor  you  really  well  paid  the  same
[13:27] 
[13:27] happens  hey  Alex  same  happened  like  with
[13:29] 
[13:30] engineers  in  the  50s  uh  but  right  now  if
[13:32] 
[13:32] everybody  like  has  a  has  a  paper  that
[13:35] 
[13:35] says  that  journalist  I  don't  know  uh
[13:37] 
[13:37] psychologist  whatever  I  mean  the  the
[13:39] 
[13:39] value  of  this  the  value  of  this  degree
[13:41] 
[13:42] like  goes  towards  zero  so  the  thing  is
[13:44] 
[13:44] that  the  difference  that  what  we  try  to
[13:46] 
[13:46] provide  here  because  I  don't know  I'm  an
[13:48] 
[13:48] engineer  myself  I  went  through  a  five
[13:50] 
[13:50] years  of  engineering  which  I'm  not  even
[13:53] 
[13:54] sure  that  provided  this  transversal
[13:55] 
[13:55] education  it  didn't  it  didn't  because
[13:57] 
[13:57] because  when  when  I  was  like  at  the  end
[14:00] 
[14:00] of  the  at  the  end  of  the  of  my  career  I
[14:02] 
[14:02] was  like  a  perfect  useless  like  I  didn't
[14:04] 
[14:04] I  I  didn't  know  like  I  didn't  I  was  not
[14:07] 
[14:07] able  to  create  anything  like  by  myself
[14:10] 
[14:10] yeah  but  uh  how  was  your  learning  curve
[14:13] 
[14:13] when  you  when  you  left  the  university
[14:15] 
[14:15] and  you  have  to  start  doing  things  how
[14:18] 
[14:18] was  your  learning  curve.  I'm  I  mean  I'm
[14:19] 
[14:19] not  sure  because  I  I  cannot  compare  with
[14:21] 
[14:21] myself  without  a  degree  but  I  don't  know
[14:24] 
[14:24] I  knew  plenty  of  things  like  how  like  I
[14:26] 
[14:26] don't  know  gas  like  gas  like  goes
[14:29] 
[14:29] through  a  pipe  or  I  don't  know  how
[14:31] 
[14:31] electricity  works  and  that's  fine  like
[14:33] 
[14:33] you  walk  in  this  down  the  street  and  you
[14:34] 
[14:34] are  like  I  don't  know  you're  happy  about
[14:36] 
[14:36] it  your  mother  is  happy  about  it  because
[14:38] 
[14:38] it  tells  like  your  neighbor  that  her  son
[14:41] 
[14:41] is  like  an  engineer  but  I  don't  know  um
[14:45] 
[14:45] I  don't  think  I  don't  think  it  helps
[14:47] 
[14:47] that  much  in  order  to  start  a  company.
[14:50] 
[14:50] For  example,  I  wanted  to  start  a
[14:52] 
[14:52] company.  I  didn't  even  know  what  a  P&L
[14:53] 
[14:54] was.  I  think  a  P&L  it's  something  that
[14:56] 
[14:56] everybody  should  know  and  I  get  out  of
[14:58] 
[14:58] like  industrial  engineering  and  I  didn't
[15:00] 
[15:00] know  what  a  P&L  was  and  I  it  was  it  was
[15:02] 
[15:02] really  shame.  I  mean  I  I  learned  that
[15:04] 
[15:04] really  fast.  Absolutely.  I  had  the  I  was
[15:08] 
[15:08] incentivized  to  to  learn  that  right.  But
[15:11] 
[15:11] uh  I  have  the  sense  that  I  was  in  the
[15:12] 
[15:12] university  for  5  years  uh  not  sure  what
[15:15] 
[15:15] I  was  doing  there  like  as  you  said  like
[15:17] 
[15:17] going  like  getting  shortcuts  like  to  get
[15:21] 
[15:21] this  teachers  signature  whatever  right
[15:24] 
[15:24] maybe  a  good  metaphor  is  like  if  you
[15:25] 
[15:25] you're  in  in  the  university  and  you're
[15:27] 
[15:27] making
[15:28] 
[15:28] bodybuilding  you're  training  you  you
[15:30] 
[15:30] you're  getting  fit  and  then  you  don't
[15:33] 
[15:33] know  how  to  fight  but  you're  very  fit
[15:36] 
[15:36] and  and  uh  and  for  instance  I  was  in  a
[15:38] 
[15:38] in  a  gym  and  we  that  and  I  was  doing
[15:41] 
[15:41] taekwondo  and  karate  back  then.  Uh  and
[15:43] 
[15:43] then  one  day  came  this  this  guy  was  it
[15:46] 
[15:46] was  a  a  giant  was  a  a  6.8  guy  really  fit
[15:52] 
[15:52] really  muscular  he  didn't  know  anything
[15:54] 
[15:54] about
[15:55] 
[15:55] karate  anything  but  in  6  months  of
[15:58] 
[15:58] training  he  won  the  catalon  championship
[16:01] 
[16:01] in  heavyweight
[16:03] 
[16:03] kinkai  I  fought  with  him  at  I  I I  was
[16:07] 
[16:07] fighting  for  with  him  for  10  minutes  and
[16:09] 
[16:09] I  hit  him  like  a  dozen  times  uh  and  with
[16:13] 
[16:14] what  punch  he  throw  me  2  meters  away
[16:16] 
[16:16] literally  I  was  rolling  like  uh  like
[16:20] 
[16:20] Jackie  Jen  when  he  gets  hit  by  a  by  a
[16:21] 
[16:22] giant  and  because  he  was  really  fit.  He
[16:25] 
[16:25] he  was  really  in  connection  with  his
[16:27] 
[16:27] body  and  he  learned  to  get  it  really  uh
[16:30] 
[16:30] really  fast.  The  problem  is  are  we
[16:33] 
[16:33] training?  Are  we  really  getting  fitter?
[16:36] 
[16:36] And  and  and  in  the  university  we're
[16:39] 
[16:39] really  specialized.  But  my  problem  uh
[16:42] 
[16:42] right  now  is  if  we  are  not  providing  in
[16:47] 
[16:47] the  university  a  a  general  education.  We
[16:50] 
[16:50] don't  not  providing  fit  fit  engineers  in
[16:55] 
[16:55] all  senses  able  to  communicate  to
[16:58] 
[16:58] collaborate  to  know  math  to  know  how  to
[17:01] 
[17:01] solve  problems  know  how  to  learn  things
[17:03] 
[17:03] how  to  find  information  and  if  we're  not
[17:05] 
[17:06] providing  these  kind  of  people  and  then
[17:09] 
[17:09] so  we  we  provide  people  specializ  in
[17:11] 
[17:11] knowing  how  to  make  uh  electrical
[17:13] 
[17:13] circuits  and  how  to  um  design  databases
[17:17] 
[17:17] or  make  the  wonderful  recursive
[17:20] 
[17:20] algorithms  to  or  know  some  technique  of
[17:24] 
[17:24] AI  for  instance  it's  what  you  can  learn
[17:26] 
[17:26] in  the  our  university  and  then  you  only
[17:28] 
[17:28] learn  through  things  like  boot  camps
[17:31] 
[17:31] which  are
[17:32] 
[17:32] essential  what  kind  of  city  are  we  going
[17:35] 
[17:35] to  become  are  we  going  to  go  become  San
[17:37] 
[17:37] Francisco  are  we  going  to  become
[17:40] 
[17:40] Bangalore  because  in  Bangalore  they  know
[17:42] 
[17:42] okay  you  need  to  do  this  task  is  really
[17:45] 
[17:45] well  defined  here's  your  framework  here
[17:48] 
[17:48] are  your  tools  these  these  are  your
[17:49] 
[17:49] inputs  and  these  are  the  outputs  that
[17:51] 
[17:51] you're  going  to  get.  And  then  you  have
[17:53] 
[17:53] these  guys  in  India  who  are  really
[17:56] 
[17:56] profession  proficient  in  that  they  get
[17:58] 
[17:58] the  training  and  they  get  to  work  and
[18:00] 
[18:00] they're  really  efficient  doing  that.
[18:02] 
[18:02] That's  a  very  interesting  and  and  the
[18:03] 
[18:04] best  guys  and  the  rounded  guys  in  India
[18:07] 
[18:07] they  go  to  San  Francisco.  H  that  is  very
[18:09] 
[18:09] interesting  and  nor  the  other  are  the
[18:12] 
[18:12] solution  right  because  I  mean  the  way
[18:14] 
[18:14] established  and  it  goes  back  to
[18:15] 
[18:15] incentives  like  uh  as  he  told  before  it
[18:18] 
[18:18] was  a  great  point  I  think  like  uh  if  you
[18:21] 
[18:21] go  to  university  when  you  are  a  teen  but
[18:23] 
[18:23] you  go  there  because  you  are  told  to
[18:25] 
[18:25] because  you  I  don't  know  because  it's
[18:27] 
[18:27] it's  what  you  you  should  do  because
[18:28] 
[18:28] everybody  does  that  and  I  don't  know  you
[18:30] 
[18:30] look  around  oh  man  I  mean  everybody's
[18:32] 
[18:32] going  to  university  so  do  I  right  so  uh
[18:34] 
[18:34] you  go  there  but  you  go  through  really
[18:38] 
[18:38] five  valuable  years  of  of  your  existence
[18:40] 
[18:40] and  and  they're  they're  gone  because  I
[18:43] 
[18:43] mean  you  you  were  there  but  I  don't know
[18:44] 
[18:44] maybe  your  head  was  in  another  place  and
[18:46] 
[18:46] and  maybe  it  was  not  the  right  time  for
[18:48] 
[18:48] you  travel
[18:51] 
[18:51] exactly  means  to  get  to  this  transversal
[18:54] 
[18:54] univers  education  right  because  there
[18:56] 
[18:56] now  we  have  knowledge  is  not  locked  in
[18:59] 
[18:59] the  in  the  university  exactly  but  just
[19:02] 
[19:02] one  one  one  quick  remark  that's  the
[19:04] 
[19:04] every  single  person  that  goes  through
[19:06] 
[19:06] the  boot  camp  every  single  one  knows
[19:08] 
[19:08] exactly  like  they  know  really  clear  what
[19:11] 
[19:11] they  want.  I  mean  once  they  want  to
[19:13] 
[19:13] become  an  entrepreneur  another  one  wants
[19:15] 
[19:15] I  don't  know  a  job  in  tech  another  one  I
[19:17] 
[19:17] don't  know  to  understand  this  and  better
[19:20] 
[19:20] like  how  to  market  this  product  through
[19:22] 
[19:22] non-conventional  channels  so  everybody
[19:24] 
[19:24] has  a  clear  goal  of  what  they  want  and  I
[19:26] 
[19:26] think  that  they  are  there  because  they
[19:28] 
[19:28] want  to  and  they  have  a  great  incentive
[19:31] 
[19:31] to  be  there  and  to  progress  towards  the
[19:33] 
[19:33] towards  the  course.  Yeah,  actually  I  met
[19:36] 
[19:36] a  guy  that  come  from  um  a  cing  school
[19:40] 
[19:40] from  San  Francisco  and  he  he  was  um  a
[19:44] 
[19:44] war  for  me  and  he  I  I  met  uh  him  last
[19:50] 
[19:50] week  uh  since  one  year  uh  we  had  seen
[19:53] 
[19:54] him  and  he  uh  was  um  creating  his  career
[19:58] 
[19:58] now.  He  attended  to  a  three  month  um
[20:02] 
[20:02] code  school  there  in  San  Francisco.  He
[20:05] 
[20:05] came  back  to  work  here  in  Barcelona  for
[20:08] 
[20:08] for  a  half  a  year  and  then  now  he's
[20:11] 
[20:11] working  in  Dublin  and  in  Dublin  now  he's
[20:14] 
[20:14] aware  that  he  has  to  build  up  his  career
[20:17] 
[20:17] about  building  up  his  knowledge  uh  with
[20:20] 
[20:20] more  um  more  software  architecture  or  uh
[20:25] 
[20:25] concepts  like  this  that  maybe  uh  are  not
[20:29] 
[20:29] uh  are  not  given  that  deeper  in  code.  Uh
[20:33] 
[20:33] okay  we  are  trying  to  but  that  students
[20:37] 
[20:37] are  know  that  they  have  to  build  his
[20:40] 
[20:40] career  because  they  are  so  engaged
[20:42] 
[20:42] people  and  they  attend  to  them  to  the
[20:45] 
[20:45] code  to  the  to  our  code  school  for  this
[20:48] 
[20:48] for  building  a  career  in  a  fast  pace  in
[20:50] 
[20:50] a  very  fast  pace  and  he  they  know  how  to
[20:54] 
[20:54] build  uh  their  careers  and  we  need  to  to
[20:57] 
[20:57] present  Alexandro  Sanardi  he's  also  with
[21:02] 
[21:02] uh  with  CodeWorks  uh  founder  and  and
[21:05] 
[21:05] director  of  of  CodeWorks  in  Barcelona.
[21:07] 
[21:07] Yeah.  CEO.  Yeah.  Uh  a  fairly  new  uh
[21:10] 
[21:10] hacker  school  in  in  Barcelona,  I  had  to
[21:13] 
[21:13] say.  And  uh  uh  welcome.  Thanks.  First  of
[21:16] 
[21:16] all,  uh  great  to  have  you  with  us.  Uh
[21:19] 
[21:19] thanks  for  organizing  this.
[21:21] 
[21:21] And  now  not now  that  you're  here,  uh
[21:24] 
[21:24] we're  talking  about  um  how  prepared  uh  a
[21:29] 
[21:29] student  can  be  or  a  student  after
[21:31] 
[21:31] attending  a  hacker  school.  H  how  how  uh
[21:34] 
[21:34] ready  is  he  to  to  go  into  a  startup  for
[21:37] 
[21:37] example  and  and  you  know  uh  take  his
[21:41] 
[21:41] skills  and  and  really  be  helpful?  Yeah.
[21:44] 
[21:44] Um  sorry  uh  can  you  can  you  give  me
[21:47] 
[21:47] again  a  little  round  of  introduction?
[21:50] 
[21:50] I  know  Mark  collaborate.  So  Mark  is  from
[21:54] 
[21:54] Iron  Hack.  Mark  from  the  UBC  and  Mushap.
[21:58] 
[21:58] Mark  as  well.  Yeah.  Mark Mark  as  well.
[22:00] 
[22:00] Okay.  Nice  to  meet  you.  Okay.  Um  Okay.
[22:03] 
[22:03] So  I  was  I  was  listening  to  what  uh  Mark
[22:07] 
[22:07] was  saying  a  moment  ago  uh  and  he  made
[22:09] 
[22:09] this  example.  I  think  it  was  pretty
[22:11] 
[22:11] interesting  uh  when  he  was  saying  do  we
[22:14] 
[22:14] want  a  city  that  is  San  Francisco  or  do
[22:16] 
[22:16] we  want  a  city  that's  Bangalore?  Uh  well
[22:21] 
[22:21] um  we're  in  the  middle.  We're  in  the
[22:23] 
[22:23] middle  of  the  way.  Well,  yeah.  Yeah.  I
[22:25] 
[22:25] mean  um  what  is  what  is  interesting  in
[22:28] 
[22:28] in  this  we  take  it  just  as  a  as  a  let's
[22:32] 
[22:32] say  as  an  idea  to  to  talk  about  a  topic.
[22:35] 
[22:35] Uh  I  think  Bangalore  and  San  Francisco
[22:37] 
[22:37] are  historically  two  very  different
[22:39] 
[22:39] cities  and  we're  not  saying  like  one  is
[22:43] 
[22:43] better,  one  is  worse,  you  know,  it's
[22:45] 
[22:45] it's  different  situations.
[22:47] 
[22:47] um  in  terms  of  uh  of  what  he  was  saying,
[22:52] 
[22:52] I  think  it's
[22:54] 
[22:54] interesting  that  actually  um  San
[22:57] 
[22:57] Francisco  which  I  think  you  were
[22:58] 
[22:58] depicting  if  I  get  it  right  as  a  as  a
[23:01] 
[23:01] city  where  there  is  uh  more
[23:04] 
[23:04] entrepreneurial  potential  there  is  there
[23:06] 
[23:06] is  more  creation  you  were  saying  in
[23:07] 
[23:07] Bangalore  it's  more  execution  basically
[23:09] 
[23:09] right
[23:11] 
[23:11] okay  I  think  it's  interesting  that  in
[23:14] 
[23:14] this
[23:15] 
[23:15] regards  San  San  Francisco  is  the  home  of
[23:18] 
[23:18] boot  camps  like  all  boot  camps  were  born
[23:23] 
[23:23] the  idea  of  coding  boot  camps  was  born
[23:25] 
[23:25] in  San  Francisco.  Uh  it's  where  most
[23:28] 
[23:28] boot  camps  uh  were  grown  and  in  the  past
[23:31] 
[23:31] three  years  have  flourished  in  the
[23:32] 
[23:32] industry  and  I  think  iron  was  a  was  a
[23:36] 
[23:36] early  boot  camp  here  in  Europe.  uh  one
[23:39] 
[23:39] of  the  first  ones  to  start.  We  started
[23:41] 
[23:41] in  June  this  year.  Uh  although  we're
[23:43] 
[23:43] like  building  on  the  shoulder  of  giants.
[23:45] 
[23:45] We're  taking  from  the  best  practices  of
[23:47] 
[23:48] of  uh  Silicon  Valley's  best  boot  camps.
[23:51] 
[23:51] Uh  but  I  think  what  is  interesting  is
[23:53] 
[23:53] that
[23:54] 
[23:54] so  this  creativity  this  cap  capacity  to
[23:58] 
[23:59] create  transcends  uh  somewhat
[24:03] 
[24:03] um
[24:05] 
[24:05] the  only  the  education  field  and  and
[24:08] 
[24:08] it's  more  embedded  in  society  and  it's
[24:10] 
[24:10] more  like  it's  related  to  many  things
[24:13] 
[24:13] access  to  capital  culture  these  things
[24:16] 
[24:16] uh  but  if  you  want  to  look  for  some  sort
[24:18] 
[24:18] of  correlation
[24:21] 
[24:21] There  are  no  many  boot  camps  in
[24:23] 
[24:23] Bangalore  and  there  are  many  boot  camps
[24:25] 
[24:25] in  San  Francisco.  So  at  least  I  think
[24:27] 
[24:27] it's  fair  to  say  that  boot  camps  do  not
[24:29] 
[24:29] hurt  this  process.  If  you  look  at  if  you
[24:31] 
[24:31] look  if  you  look  at  the  outcome  it's
[24:33] 
[24:33] it's  almost  the  opposite.  they  support
[24:35] 
[24:35] this  process  in  a  way.  Is  it  is  it  boot
[24:37] 
[24:37] camps  are  the  only  one  who  are  able  to
[24:40] 
[24:40] create  this  book?  Absolutely  not.
[24:42] 
[24:42] University  and  boot  camps  and  I  think
[24:43] 
[24:43] this  this  is  where  I  wanted  to  like  kind
[24:45] 
[24:45] of  close  this  little  um  comment  kind  of
[24:49] 
[24:49] recapping  what  I  was  hearing  earlier.  Um
[24:53] 
[24:53] I  don't  think  there  is  a  fight  between
[24:55] 
[24:55] boot  camp  I'm  sorry  because  I  know  I
[24:57] 
[24:57] know  the  the  the  podcast  is  probably
[24:59] 
[24:59] about  like  boot  camps  versus
[25:01] 
[25:01] universities.  I  don't  think  there  is  a
[25:03] 
[25:03] fight  between  boot  camps  universities.  I
[25:04] 
[25:04] think  the  two  of  them  uh  coexist  very
[25:08] 
[25:08] well  in  a  healthy  in  a  healthy  system.
[25:11] 
[25:11] Uh  and  they  serve  different  purposes.  Um
[25:14] 
[25:14] if  someone  as  from  the  perspective  of  a
[25:16] 
[25:16] student,  if  a  student  wants  to  take  a
[25:19] 
[25:19] few  years  in  his  life  or  her  life  um  and
[25:24] 
[25:24] uh  explore  explore  uh  this  field  like
[25:28] 
[25:28] computer  science,  wander  around,  take
[25:32] 
[25:32] take  even  breaks  because  they  have  like
[25:33] 
[25:33] breaks  in  the  summer.  They  have  time  to
[25:35] 
[25:35] explore  even  as  a  life  experience
[25:37] 
[25:37] without  just  a  pure  studying.  It's
[25:39] 
[25:39] something  they  can  only  do  at
[25:40] 
[25:40] university,  right?  That's  something  that
[25:42] 
[25:42] lasts  for  three  years.  they  can  do
[25:43] 
[25:43] Arasmus,  they  have  time  to  like  really
[25:46] 
[25:46] dig  into  some  topics  if  they're
[25:48] 
[25:48] interested  outside  of  the  curriculum,
[25:50] 
[25:50] etc.  On  the  other  hand,  sometimes
[25:53] 
[25:53] universities  fail  at  currently  at
[25:57] 
[25:57] preparing  students  uh  with  some
[25:59] 
[25:59] practical  tools  that  they  will  need  in
[26:02] 
[26:02] at  their  job  like  when  they  start  from
[26:03] 
[26:03] day  one.  Um  and  this  is  where  boot  camps
[26:07] 
[26:07] shine.  boot  camp  shine  in  uh  preparing
[26:10] 
[26:10] someone  in  three  month  if  if  someone
[26:11] 
[26:11] wants  to  like  um  you  know  like  change
[26:14] 
[26:14] their  career  and  say  like  I  want  to  get
[26:18] 
[26:18] um  a  career  in  software  engineering  but
[26:20] 
[26:20] I  have  a  different  background  I  don't
[26:22] 
[26:22] want  to  go  back  to  university  and  study
[26:23] 
[26:23] for  another  three  years  uh  or  I  want  to
[26:27] 
[26:27] I've  been  already  web  developing  a
[26:28] 
[26:28] little  bit  what  some  websites  some
[26:30] 
[26:30] things  I  want  to  level  it  up  and  become
[26:32] 
[26:32] an  engineer  quick  this  is  this  is  what
[26:35] 
[26:35] boot  camps  do  they  offer  opportunities
[26:36] 
[26:36] for  smart  people  to  get  in  a  position
[26:40] 
[26:40] where  uh  they  can  be  productive  and  and
[26:44] 
[26:44] they  can  get  a  good  job  in  software
[26:46] 
[26:46] engineering  real  fast  real  fast.  Now
[26:48] 
[26:48] during  this  uh  amount  of  time  which  for
[26:51] 
[26:51] iron  is  two  months  for  us  it's  three
[26:52] 
[26:52] months  two  slightly  different  courses
[26:55] 
[26:55] but  the  overall  concept  uh  has  a  lot  of
[26:57] 
[26:57] things  in  common
[27:01] 
[27:01] they  don't  have  much  free  time  right
[27:03] 
[27:03] it's  super  super  intense  in  the  case  of
[27:05] 
[27:06] that's  the  point  of  a  boot  camp  that's
[27:07] 
[27:07] the  point  of  a  boot  camp  the  case  of
[27:08] 
[27:08] code  works  is  11  hours  a  day  six  days  a
[27:10] 
[27:10] week  there  is  no  rasmos  there  is  no  you
[27:12] 
[27:12] know  that  there  is  980  hours  of  studying
[27:15] 
[27:15] in  three  months  that's  like  a  master
[27:18] 
[27:18] like  a  year  master  in  three  months.
[27:20] 
[27:21] Um  so  different  experiences.  Um  if  uh  we
[27:25] 
[27:26] need  engineers  that  have  stronger
[27:28] 
[27:28] theoretical  knowledge,  we  need  them  in
[27:31] 
[27:31] the  industry.  Uh  every  team  needs  them
[27:34] 
[27:34] especially  in  some  sectors  like
[27:36] 
[27:36] artificial  intelligence,  big  data.  Uh
[27:38] 
[27:38] these  engineers  are  more  likely  to  come
[27:41] 
[27:41] from  universities.  That's  true.  Like  I'm
[27:43] 
[27:43] not  going  to  pretend  that  boot  camps  are
[27:45] 
[27:45] good  at  forming  these  type  of  engineers
[27:47] 
[27:47] because  this  type  of  studying  requires
[27:50] 
[27:50] years.  It's  not  something  you  can
[27:51] 
[27:51] compress  in  three  months.  Uh  mostly  they
[27:55] 
[27:55] would  benefit  from  doing  a  master  doing
[27:57] 
[27:57] a  PhD.  So  maybe  after  eight  nine  years
[27:59] 
[27:59] of  study  you  can  come  up  with  some  guys
[28:01] 
[28:01] who's  really  good  at  artificial
[28:02] 
[28:02] intelligence.  It's  not  something  you  can
[28:04] 
[28:04] do  in  three  months.  They  can  get  started
[28:07] 
[28:07] with  these  topics.  they  can  start  to
[28:09] 
[28:09] play  with  it  and  then  they  can  pursue  a
[28:11] 
[28:11] career  keep  studying  maybe  do  a  master
[28:13] 
[28:13] they  can  start  with  a  boot  camp  and  then
[28:14] 
[28:14] dig  into  it  in  the  coming  years  having  a
[28:16] 
[28:16] job  being  paid  finding  some  time  on  the
[28:19] 
[28:19] side  to  keep  learning  and  that's  what
[28:20] 
[28:20] student  our  students  do  but  if  they  want
[28:23] 
[28:23] to  go  straight  into  like  being  in  the
[28:25] 
[28:25] Google  team  for  artificial  intelligence
[28:28] 
[28:28] do  a  master  do  a  PhD  and  apply  for  that
[28:31] 
[28:31] study  for  nine  years  that's  the  the
[28:33] 
[28:33] career  path  and  the  industry  needs  this
[28:34] 
[28:34] and  universities  are  really  good  at  this
[28:36] 
[28:36] that's  a  clear  message  for  you  for  for
[28:38] 
[28:38] potential  students  that  are  listening
[28:40] 
[28:40] now  and  and  wondering,  okay,  I  want  to
[28:42] 
[28:42] be  a  developer.  I  want  to  work  at  Google
[28:45] 
[28:45] doing  this  amazing  project.  I  I  have  a
[28:48] 
[28:48] uh  I  have  an  objection.  First  of  all,  I
[28:49] 
[28:50] I  like  very  much  your  your  intervention
[28:51] 
[28:52] and  I  agree  90%  with  everything  except
[28:55] 
[28:55] except  uh  for  instance  uh  everything
[28:57] 
[28:57] that  you  said  about  the  the  industry  and
[28:59] 
[28:59] the  and  boot  camps.  I  completely  agree.
[29:02] 
[29:02] A  university  doesn't  provide  with  the
[29:04] 
[29:04] with  uh  actual  uh  technical  skills  that
[29:08] 
[29:08] uh  industry  needs  because  it  it it  moves
[29:10] 
[29:10] in  another  cycle  of  of  upgrading.  Yeah.
[29:13] 
[29:13] But  my  point  of  view  is  that  right  now
[29:17] 
[29:17] uh  it's  true  that  university  can  provide
[29:21] 
[29:21] with  experience  and  this  experience  is
[29:24] 
[29:24] good  for  the  person  because  if  you  take
[29:27] 
[29:27] one  boy  or  girl  of  18  years  old  the  four
[29:31] 
[29:32] years  that  he's  going  to  spend  in  the
[29:33] 
[29:33] university
[29:34] 
[29:34] it's  it's  uh  it's  really  important  for
[29:38] 
[29:38] them  for  for  mature  because  it's  it  has
[29:40] 
[29:40] nothing  to  do  a  person  of  24  years  old
[29:43] 
[29:43] and  a  and  and  a  person  of  18  years  old.
[29:45] 
[29:46] It's  you're  al  already  a  a  teenager  and
[29:49] 
[29:49] these  years  you  better  be  in  the
[29:51] 
[29:51] university  or  somewhere  else  but  you  can
[29:53] 
[29:53] do  uh  be  traveling  or  or  doing  something
[29:55] 
[29:55] else.  I  agree.  Yeah.  And  that's  why  I
[29:57] 
[29:57] mentioned  the  life.  Yeah.  The  life
[29:59] 
[29:59] experience  and  I  I  like  very  much  the
[30:01] 
[30:02] life  experience  in  the  university  and
[30:03] 
[30:03] that's  for  instance  one  of  the  the
[30:05] 
[30:05] reasons  because  I  came  back  to  un  to
[30:08] 
[30:08] university  when  I  was  working.  Yeah,  I
[30:10] 
[30:10] remember  the  first  day  that  I  was
[30:12] 
[30:12] working  in  a  company  and  my  friends
[30:13] 
[30:13] called  me  today  we  have  a
[30:16] 
[30:16] party  no  I  want  to  come  and  I  was  in  I
[30:20] 
[30:20] was  coding  in  the  company  say  no  I  want
[30:22] 
[30:22] to  go  back  to  university  and  I  went  10
[30:24] 
[30:24] years  later  the  problem  that  we  have  now
[30:27] 
[30:27] is  that  universities  doesn't  have  the
[30:29] 
[30:30] exclusive  the  exclusivity  to  all  this
[30:32] 
[30:32] knowledge  that  we  need  to  become  a
[30:34] 
[30:34] well-rounded  engineer  and  the  problem  is
[30:37] 
[30:37] that  we  have  the  wrong  incentive
[30:39] 
[30:39] incentives  in  uh  in  the  in  the  academic
[30:42] 
[30:42] academic  staff.  We  have  a  really  old
[30:46] 
[30:46] institution  really  sometimes  really  old
[30:49] 
[30:49] sometimes  centuries  old  uh  half  a
[30:52] 
[30:52] millennia  in  in  in  some  universities
[30:54] 
[30:54] that  and  with  some  power  structures  some
[30:57] 
[30:57] some  practices.  And  what  we  have  now  is
[31:01] 
[31:01] that  university  was  designed  for  a  time
[31:04] 
[31:04] where  you  went  you  got  education  you  got
[31:08] 
[31:08] training  and  you  were  set  for  life  and
[31:11] 
[31:11] this  is  not  long  no  longer  true.  So  how
[31:13] 
[31:13] will  the  universities  evolve  in  the  in
[31:15] 
[31:15] the  future?  You  never  see  in  the
[31:17] 
[31:17] university  we  have  a  big  problem  right
[31:19] 
[31:19] now  because  there's  internet  there's  ms
[31:22] 
[31:22] there's  online  learning  there's  boot
[31:23] 
[31:23] camps  there  a  lot  of  things  that  are
[31:25] 
[31:25] competing  with  us  to  get  a  good  job  but
[31:28] 
[31:28] the  problem  is  how  are  we  going  to  get
[31:32] 
[31:33] wellrounded  professionals
[31:36] 
[31:36] it's  not  a  problem  I  think  right  now
[31:38] 
[31:38] it's  not  a  problem  that  that  is  going  to
[31:40] 
[31:40] be  fixed  in  the  university  right  it's
[31:42] 
[31:42] going  to  be  fixed  in  the  culture  because
[31:44] 
[31:44] we  are  in  a  scenario  of  online  learning.
[31:47] 
[31:47] Yeah.  When  we  can  get  training  from  boot
[31:49] 
[31:49] camps  and  we  can  I  mean  in  things  where
[31:52] 
[31:52] places  like  in  boot  camps  or  co-workers
[31:54] 
[31:54] and  even  in  the  university  we're  going
[31:56] 
[31:56] to  get  networks  of  uh  people  that  we
[31:59] 
[31:59] know  where  we  are  going  to  be  learning
[32:02] 
[32:02] all  the  time.  My  problem  that  I  have
[32:04] 
[32:04] also  is  that  I  have  seen  some  startups
[32:07] 
[32:08] in  incubators  where  they  get  some  guy
[32:10] 
[32:10] they  put  it  they  put  him  through  a  boot
[32:13] 
[32:13] camp  and  they  tell  him  okay  you  can
[32:15] 
[32:15] build  your  startup  and  now  you're  a  CTO
[32:18] 
[32:18] and  they  always  screw  up.  You  cannot
[32:24] 
[32:24] become  a
[32:25] 
[32:25] CTO  with  just  a  boot  camp  because
[32:30] 
[32:30] because  you  know  how  to  use  Can  I  say
[32:33] 
[32:33] something?  Okay.  Yeah.  Uh  okay.  Uh  there
[32:37] 
[32:37] are  so  many  things  on  the  table  that's
[32:38] 
[32:38] I'm  I'm  trying  to  go  in in  somewhat  in
[32:42] 
[32:42] some  order.  So  let's  go  with  the  co
[32:43] 
[32:43] first.  I  think  this  is  very  related  to
[32:47] 
[32:47] university  mentality  versus  uh  boot
[32:49] 
[32:49] camps  mentality.  Um,  okay.  If  you're
[32:52] 
[32:52] talking  about  an  established  business,
[32:55] 
[32:55] uh,  with  a  large  scale  of  operations,  I
[32:58] 
[32:58] don't  think  that  a  person  that  is  coming
[33:00] 
[33:00] straight  out  of  a  boot  camp  would  be  the
[33:01] 
[33:01] best  candidate  to  be  a  co.  No  doubt.
[33:03] 
[33:04] Like  that's  it.  If  you're  like  Airbnb,
[33:07] 
[33:07] your  co  should  not  come  straight  out  of
[33:09] 
[33:09] the  boot  camp.  No,  but  there  I  think
[33:11] 
[33:11] also  has  like  sorry  but  it  has  like  I
[33:14] 
[33:14] don't  know  the  the  main  part  of  his  job
[33:18] 
[33:18] is  not  just  about  coding  but  also
[33:21] 
[33:21] mentoring  their  employer  so  many  things
[33:24] 
[33:24] recruiting  so  I  don't  know  the  guy  has
[33:26] 
[33:26] to  be  technical  absolutely  but  the  main
[33:29] 
[33:29] traits  I  think  are  on  lay  on  the  soft
[33:33] 
[33:33] skills  so  I  don't  think  we  can  provide
[33:35] 
[33:35] that  well  yeah  it's  a  mix  it's  a  mixing
[33:38] 
[33:38] but  I  think  there  This  is  the  point  I
[33:40] 
[33:40] was  trying  to  make.  There  was  something
[33:41] 
[33:41] that  kind  of  stuck  to  my  mind  about  what
[33:43] 
[33:43] Mark  was  saying.  It's  like  because  they
[33:45] 
[33:45] he  said  because  they  would  fail  hard
[33:48] 
[33:48] and  actually  they  are  failing  hard  or
[33:50] 
[33:50] they  are  they  are  or  they  have  failed
[33:52] 
[33:52] hard.  Okay,  I'm  really  glad  about  this
[33:54] 
[33:54] on  one  side.  Don't  get  me  wrong,  but  I  I
[33:57] 
[33:57] know  that  what  I'm  saying  is  slightly
[33:58] 
[33:58] controversial.  It  depends  on  situation
[34:00] 
[34:00] per  situation,  but  I  think  this  is
[34:03] 
[34:03] extremely  good  and  proves  the  fact  that
[34:06] 
[34:06] boot  camps  are  useful.  Um  the  best
[34:10] 
[34:10] professionals  in  all  sectors.  This  is
[34:12] 
[34:12] not  programming.  This  is  life  are  people
[34:15] 
[34:15] who  failed  hard.  They  know  what  it  means
[34:19] 
[34:19] to  fail.  What  makes  the  US  economy
[34:21] 
[34:21] strong  is  that  they  fail  hard  and  they
[34:23] 
[34:24] fail  fast  and  they're  not  scared  to  and
[34:26] 
[34:26] they  learn  a  ton  from  failing.  All  the
[34:28] 
[34:28] best  entrepreneurs  I've  met  in  the  US
[34:31] 
[34:31] failed  really  hard  several  times  before
[34:34] 
[34:34] making  it.  Some  just  didn't  make  it.
[34:37] 
[34:38] Some  failed  fail  fail  learn  and
[34:40] 
[34:40] eventually  made  it  big.  Now  for  example
[34:44] 
[34:44] I'm  not  saying  this  is  true  or  this  is
[34:45] 
[34:45] not  true  but  if  universities  don't  allow
[34:47] 
[34:47] you  to  fail  you  miss  a  learning
[34:49] 
[34:50] opportunity.  Is  does  that  mean  that  then
[34:52] 
[34:52] universities  should  not  teach  you  things
[34:53] 
[34:54] so  you  fail  and  then  so  you  learn?  No
[34:55] 
[34:56] I'm  not  saying  this.  I'm  not  saying  I'm
[34:57] 
[34:57] just  saying  failing  per  se  is  not
[34:59] 
[34:59] necessarily  something  that  is  absolutely
[35:03] 
[35:03] bad.  And  I  think  a  CTO,  a  good  CTO  must
[35:07] 
[35:07] have  made  some  mistakes.  If  I  were  to
[35:09] 
[35:09] hire  a  CTO  and  and  when  when when  we
[35:12] 
[35:12] hire  collaborators,  we  ask  them  what
[35:14] 
[35:14] their  successes  are,  but  I  want  to  know
[35:15] 
[35:15] about  their  failures.  If  they  have  not
[35:17] 
[35:17] failed,  they've  not  failed  hard  and  they
[35:19] 
[35:19] don't  know  what  it  means  to  fail  and
[35:20] 
[35:20] they  have  not  learned  from  it.  I'm
[35:22] 
[35:22] scared.  These  guys  have  no  idea  what
[35:25] 
[35:25] failure  is,  it's  a  bad  collaborator.  So
[35:28] 
[35:28] we  have  hacker  schools  on  the  on  the  one
[35:29] 
[35:29] side  that's  like  a  three  two  three
[35:31] 
[35:31] months  program  and  you're  learning  one
[35:33] 
[35:33] very  specific  thing  right  for  that
[35:35] 
[35:35] period  of  time.  Well,  several  specific
[35:37] 
[35:37] things,  but  yeah,  several  specific
[35:38] 
[35:38] things.  I  mean,  we  do  we  do  data
[35:39] 
[35:39] structures,  we  study  algorithm
[35:40] 
[35:40] complexity  compared  to  universities,
[35:42] 
[35:42] there's  it's  pretty  specific.  I  don't
[35:44] 
[35:44] know  compared  to  like  a  4-year  program.
[35:46] 
[35:46] I  I  would  we  actually  did  we  did  a
[35:48] 
[35:48] comparison  from  our  between  our
[35:50] 
[35:50] curriculum  and  university  and  I  think
[35:53] 
[35:53] one  of  the  main  things  that  we  don't  do
[35:55] 
[35:55] for  we  don't  dig  deep  into  operating
[35:57] 
[35:57] systems  like  university  does.  I  think
[36:00] 
[36:00] our  role  would  be  would  be  glad  because
[36:01] 
[36:01] he  was  he  was  working  on  that  on  that
[36:03] 
[36:03] summary.  But  if  you  compare  if  you
[36:05] 
[36:06] compare  we  have  if  if  students  or  or
[36:08] 
[36:08] listeners  are  interested  just  get  in
[36:10] 
[36:10] touch  with  us  and  we  can  provide  them  a
[36:11] 
[36:11] comparison  of  uh  what  is  the  typical  uh
[36:15] 
[36:16] 3  four  years  university  curriculum  what
[36:18] 
[36:18] is  the  topics  that  are  taught  in  there
[36:19] 
[36:20] and  the  difference  between  that  and  what
[36:21] 
[36:21] we  teach.  There  are  some  topics  that  we
[36:23] 
[36:24] don't  dig  too  much  into  but  many  of  them
[36:26] 
[36:26] and  what  we  think  are  the  core  ones  we
[36:28] 
[36:28] actually  cover.  So  we  talk  about  data
[36:29] 
[36:29] structures,  we  talk  about  algorithms,
[36:31] 
[36:31] algorithms  complexity,  complexity
[36:33] 
[36:33] analysis,  uh  you  know  we  we  talk  about
[36:35] 
[36:36] all  the  the  the  language  structure  and
[36:38] 
[36:38] and  then  architects,  software
[36:40] 
[36:40] architecture.  So  we  we  actually  cover
[36:43] 
[36:43] quite  a  lot  of  topics  but  we  will  have
[36:45] 
[36:45] our  schools  in  for  each  other  the  next
[36:48] 
[36:48] year.  That's  what  I  mean  talking  about
[36:50] 
[36:50] topics  uh  and  not  to  and  not  and  not  too
[36:54] 
[36:54] not  too  different  than  I  I  think  the
[36:55] 
[36:55] university  is  is  is  in  in  deep  trouble
[36:58] 
[36:58] and  I'm  in  in  the  university  and  I'm
[37:00] 
[37:00] really  concerned  about  because  my  job  so
[37:02] 
[37:02] we  can  uh  and  uh  and  I  think  I'm  right
[37:05] 
[37:05] now  you  can  always  come  to  boot  camps
[37:07] 
[37:07] later  I  can  come  to  teach  to  to  boot
[37:09] 
[37:09] camps  maybe  uh  it  it's  a  it's  a  it's  an
[37:13] 
[37:13] opportunity  it's  an  opportunity  maybe  uh
[37:16] 
[37:16] for  instance  in  the  university  I  learned
[37:18] 
[37:18] how  to  code  in  assembler  and  maybe  now
[37:21] 
[37:21] it's  a  a  skill  that  is  not  doesn't
[37:23] 
[37:23] matter  but  I  think  that  it  does  I  think
[37:25] 
[37:25] it's  a  perfect  example  let's  let's  let's
[37:27] 
[37:27] start  from  this  like  assembler  okay  some
[37:29] 
[37:29] engineers  need  to  know  that  assembler
[37:32] 
[37:32] right  but  we  have  a  startup  that  is
[37:35] 
[37:35] coming  up  with  a  product  and  needs  to
[37:37] 
[37:37] have  a  operating  website  or  a  mobile  app
[37:40] 
[37:40] out  in  the  market  testing  their
[37:42] 
[37:42] assumption  in  three  months  how  assembler
[37:46] 
[37:46] useful  for
[37:47] 
[37:47] them  depend  No,  no,  I  I  I'm  making  this
[37:51] 
[37:51] question  in  this  case.  So,  let's  let's
[37:53] 
[37:53] stick  for  a  second  to  discuss  how  is
[37:55] 
[37:55] assembler  useful  to  them.  I'm  not  saying
[37:57] 
[37:57] as  never  useful.  I'm  not  arguing  I'm  not
[38:00] 
[38:00] arguing  with  the  with  the  with  the
[38:02] 
[38:02] necessity  of  boot  camps  and  the  and  and
[38:04] 
[38:04] it's  useful.  I'm  talking  about  the  CTO
[38:07] 
[38:07] level.  Uh  but  even  for  a  co  of  such  a
[38:10] 
[38:10] startup,  how  is  assembler  useful  for
[38:12] 
[38:12] them?  Like  I  don't  think  honestly  that
[38:14] 
[38:14] for  a  co  of  such  a  startup  would  as  be
[38:17] 
[38:17] useful.  If  you  are  working  in  Western
[38:19] 
[38:19] Digital  or  Seagate  and  you're  writing
[38:21] 
[38:22] drivers  for  hard  drives  then  as  super
[38:25] 
[38:25] useful  for  you  then  you  should  learn
[38:26] 
[38:26] about  it.  You  should  know  about  that's
[38:27] 
[38:27] super  relevant  for  your  job.  The  uh  it
[38:30] 
[38:30] depends  for  for  instance  the  I  I  I  don't
[38:32] 
[38:32] remember  the  name  the  company  that  now
[38:34] 
[38:34] is  the  uh  the  leading  company  in  in
[38:37] 
[38:37] containers  for  cloud  computing.  It's
[38:39] 
[38:39] it's  a  docker  docker  docker  it  was  not  a
[38:43] 
[38:43] a  company  uh  making  containers  they  were
[38:46] 
[38:46] providing  another  service  right  but  they
[38:49] 
[38:49] uh  they  had  a  deep  knowledge  of
[38:51] 
[38:51] operating  systems  I  don't  know if  uh  uh
[38:53] 
[38:53] and  and  how  and  how  uh  it's  how  to  build
[38:58] 
[38:58] and  they  and  they  had  this  pro  and  they
[39:00] 
[39:00] had  this  problem  they  solved  it  in  a  in
[39:03] 
[39:03] a  so  good  way  but  that's  a  perfect
[39:05] 
[39:05] that's  a  perfect  example  they  created
[39:07] 
[39:07] and  you
[39:08] 
[39:08] I  think  it's  also  a  great  example
[39:09] 
[39:09] because  it's  a  company  that  has  built  on
[39:11] 
[39:11] top  of  open  source  but  then  the  layers
[39:13] 
[39:13] are  stacking  up  and  I'm  sure  they're
[39:15] 
[39:15] hiring  a  lot  of  developers  right  but  in
[39:17] 
[39:17] the  in  the  top  of  the  layer  so  I'm  those
[39:19] 
[39:19] I'm  sure  they  don't  have  a  clue  about
[39:21] 
[39:21] assembler  I  think  I  think
[39:23] 
[39:23] that's  I  don't  think  assembler  because
[39:26] 
[39:26] it's  it's  really  far  in  the  past  but
[39:29] 
[39:29] assembler  but  I  think  operating  systems
[39:31] 
[39:31] building  compilers  how  to  develop  a  I
[39:34] 
[39:34] think  I  think  docker  is  a  perfect
[39:35] 
[39:35] example  can  we  just  just  say  something
[39:37] 
[39:37] about  Docker.  Docker  first  of  all  is  a
[39:39] 
[39:39] rare  example.  Uh  it's  it's  out  of  in  the
[39:42] 
[39:42] if  you  look  at  the  ecosystem  of  startups
[39:45] 
[39:45] is  one  of  the  few  that  is  focusing  it's
[39:48] 
[39:48] it's  uh  it's  consumer  and  business
[39:50] 
[39:50] facing.  So  it's  not  hardware,  it's
[39:52] 
[39:52] software  and  it's  uh  focusing  on
[39:55] 
[39:56] low-level  technology.  Okay,  they  are
[39:57] 
[39:57] very  close  to  the  operating  system.
[39:59] 
[39:59] Okay.  So  it's  a  rare  example  out  of  all
[40:01] 
[40:01] the  universe  of  startups  there  are  not
[40:03] 
[40:03] many  startups  that  or  or  or  companies
[40:06] 
[40:06] that  are  working  with  this  level  of
[40:07] 
[40:07] technology.  But  even  within  docker  even
[40:09] 
[40:09] within  docker  they  will  need  some  people
[40:12] 
[40:12] who  have  a  PhD  and  have  studied  like
[40:15] 
[40:15] very  deeply  operating  system  works
[40:17] 
[40:17] within  their  team  they  will  need  people
[40:18] 
[40:18] who  have  studied  assembly  and  and
[40:21] 
[40:21] understand  how  this  works  and  deal  with
[40:23] 
[40:23] very  low-level  operating  systems
[40:25] 
[40:25] probably  in  their  backend  team.  Okay.  So
[40:28] 
[40:28] they  need  it  and  where  are  they  going  to
[40:29] 
[40:29] get  these  developers?  From  universities
[40:31] 
[40:31] or  or  boot  camps  if  they  I  know  there
[40:35] 
[40:35] are  boot  camps  on  machine  learning  for
[40:36] 
[40:36] instance.  Yeah.  Yeah.  Okay.  But  let's
[40:38] 
[40:38] say  in  the  most  common  in  the  most
[40:39] 
[40:40] common  case  in  the  most  common  you  can
[40:41] 
[40:41] learn  in  the  most  common  in  the  CTO
[40:43] 
[40:43] level  just  just  to  wrap  just  to  wrap
[40:45] 
[40:45] this  up  for  a  second  in  the  uh  even
[40:48] 
[40:48] within  docker  they  have  a  client  facing
[40:51] 
[40:52] like  they  have  they  have  they  have  a
[40:53] 
[40:53] they  have  a  website  they  have  an
[40:55] 
[40:55] interface  that  the  client  facing  with  uh
[40:58] 
[40:58] they  have  uh  an  API  all  these  things  can
[41:02] 
[41:02] are  needed  they  need  to  hire  people  they
[41:04] 
[41:04] don't  want  someone  with  a  PhD  and  and
[41:06] 
[41:06] knowledge  in  assembly  to  build  is  they
[41:08] 
[41:08] want  someone  who  uh  has  experience  with
[41:12] 
[41:12] uh  Ruby  and  Rails  or  or  Node  and  Angular
[41:15] 
[41:15] React  like  all  these  frameworks  they
[41:17] 
[41:17] need  this.  So  that's  the  perfect  example
[41:19] 
[41:19] of  the  fact  that  both  things  coexist  and
[41:22] 
[41:22] they  serve  different  purposes.  I  agree
[41:23] 
[41:23] with  that.  And  to  wrap  and  to  wrap  this
[41:24] 
[41:24] up  because  I  think  we're  running  out  of
[41:26] 
[41:26] time  and  in  the  interest  of  who's
[41:28] 
[41:28] listening  to  this,  I  think  one  of  the
[41:30] 
[41:30] question  that's  actually  useful  to  ask
[41:32] 
[41:32] for  people  is  like
[41:35] 
[41:35] um  how  much  time  do  I  want  to  invest  in
[41:39] 
[41:39] my  studying  career  and  when  do  I  want  to
[41:44] 
[41:44] start  working  and  where?  I  think  these
[41:47] 
[41:47] are  like  very  useful  question  if  you
[41:49] 
[41:49] need  to  figure  out  if  you  want  to  do
[41:50] 
[41:50] university  or  if  you  want  to  do  because
[41:52] 
[41:52] this  podcast  in  the  end  I  guess  it's  for
[41:56] 
[41:56] people  who  wonder  should  I  do  one  or
[41:58] 
[41:58] should  I  do  the  other  right  so  I  I'm
[42:01] 
[42:01] trying  to  say  like  what  could  useful
[42:03] 
[42:03] question  be  it's  like  okay  when  do  I
[42:05] 
[42:05] want  to  start  working  do  I  want  to  start
[42:08] 
[42:08] working  in  four  years  and  it's  cool  and
[42:11] 
[42:11] because  I  want  to  take  this  time  to
[42:12] 
[42:12] explore  and  go  for  a  university  don't  go
[42:15] 
[42:15] for  a  boot  camp  do  I  want  to  start
[42:17] 
[42:17] working  in  3  months,  four  months,  5
[42:19] 
[42:19] months,  go  to  a  boot  camp.  Then  a
[42:21] 
[42:21] university  is  not  is  not  the  place  to
[42:23] 
[42:23] be.  And  and  I  think  you  were  saying
[42:25] 
[42:25] something  about  students  who  are  18  or
[42:27] 
[42:27] 19.  But  many  students  at  boot  camps  are
[42:30] 
[42:30] not  18  or  19.  They're  maybe  23,  24,  25.
[42:34] 
[42:34] These  people  don't  necessarily  want  to
[42:36] 
[42:36] go  back  to  university  and  do  another
[42:37] 
[42:37] three  years  before  they  get  a  job.  So
[42:40] 
[42:40] that's  why  we  have  different  situations.
[42:41] 
[42:41] there  is  a  lot  of  talent  out  there  that
[42:43] 
[42:43] it's  perfectly  capable  to  like  you  know
[42:45] 
[42:45] get  a  great  job  in  engineering  and  I
[42:47] 
[42:47] think  boot  camps  are  helping  a  lot  with
[42:48] 
[42:48] this.  Absolutely.  So  uh  we're  running
[42:51] 
[42:51] out  of  time  as  I  said  there's  been  a
[42:52] 
[42:52] good  good  discussion  uh  we  agree  on  lot
[42:55] 
[42:55] and  and  some  things  we  don't  agree  on
[42:57] 
[42:57] and  and  that's  the  way  it  needs  to  be.
[42:59] 
[42:59] Uh  it  will  be  very  interesting  to  to  to
[43:01] 
[43:01] follow  to  see  the  future  how  both  the
[43:03] 
[43:03] universities  and  boot  camps  evolve  uh
[43:06] 
[43:06] the  next  years.  Uh  but  thank  you  so  much
[43:08] 
[43:08] everyone  for  being  here.  Uh  Maral  from
[43:13] 
[43:13] Opado  from  Ironhack.  We  have  Alessandro
[43:17] 
[43:17] Sanardi  from  Codeworks  and  also  Arol
[43:21] 
[43:21] Vinolas  from
[43:23] 
[43:23] from  Codeworks  Vinas.  Vignas.  Thank  you
[43:26] 
[43:26] so  much  for  being  here.  Uh  and  this  was
[43:29] 
[43:29] the  ITN  podcast,  the  first  one.
[43:32] 
[43:32] [Music]