Growing Asana towards IPO with Tyson Kallberg (English) - Podcast 89 — vídeo y transcripción

[00:06] the  many  recessed  active  inside  stories
[00:08] 
[00:09] they  make  a  podcast  on  the  Alamos  where
[00:11] 
[00:11] startups  negocio  technology  for  this
[00:13] 
[00:13] battle  anemic  continent  our  podcast  yes
[00:15] 
[00:15] Gujarat  released  a  Spotify  iTunes  Google
[00:17] 
[00:17] podcasts  ebooks  yatras  plataform  ass
[00:22] 
[00:22] welcome  to  ethnic  podcast  this  week  we
[00:25] 
[00:25] have  Tyson  Kyle  work  as  a  guest  how  are
[00:27] 
[00:27] you  Tyson  I'm  doing  well  thank  you
[00:29] 
[00:29] thanks  for  being  here  and  we  have  Marcus
[00:32] 
[00:32] from  Kapoor
[00:33] 
[00:33] how  are  you  Marcus  pretty  good  could  M
[00:36] 
[00:36] Geordie  C  of  factorial  so  today  we're
[00:39] 
[00:39] gonna  talk  a  little  bit  about  project
[00:41] 
[00:41] management  collaboration  SAS  product
[00:44] 
[00:44] design  a  little  bit  of  everything
[00:46] 
[00:46] and  Tyson  why  didn't  you  start  telling
[00:48] 
[00:48] us  a  little  bit  you  know  who  are  you
[00:50] 
[00:50] where  do  you  come  from  yeah  I'll  try  not
[00:51] 
[00:51] to  start  from  the  very  beginning  I  have
[00:54] 
[00:54] been  it  is  known  for  about  five  and  a
[00:55] 
[00:55] half  years  and  then  before  that  I  lived
[00:57] 
[00:57] up  in  Vancouver  Canada  where  I  worked  at
[00:59] 
[00:59] a  mobile  development  design  consultancy
[01:01] 
[01:01] for  about  five  years  I  ran  a  team  of  six
[01:03] 
[01:03] people  there  I  joined  them  way  back  when
[01:05] 
[01:05] the  iPhone  came  out  they  were  sort  of  a
[01:07] 
[01:07] cocoa  shop  and  when  the  iPhone  released
[01:09] 
[01:09] all  the  sudden  cocoa  shops  were  very  in
[01:11] 
[01:11] demand  obviously  so  started  as  the  first
[01:13] 
[01:13] sign  of  their  and  grew  team  before  that
[01:16] 
[01:16] I  work  mainly  freelance  graphic  design  I
[01:19] 
[01:19] worked  a  baby  furniture  manufacturer  for
[01:21] 
[01:21] a  little  while  yeah  it  was  not  that
[01:23] 
[01:23] exciting  and  I  will  not  in  actually  be  I
[01:26] 
[01:26] learned  a  lot  about  primarily  mobile
[01:29] 
[01:29] when  I  was  working  in  the  company  before
[01:30] 
[01:30] asana  basically  we  were  doing  iOS
[01:33] 
[01:33] Android  Blackberry  back  in  the  day
[01:35] 
[01:35] simian  back  in  the  day  for  basically
[01:37] 
[01:37] fortune  500  companies  primarily  consumer
[01:40] 
[01:40] but  with  a  little  bit  enterprise  as  well
[01:41] 
[01:41] yeah  I  wanted  to  get  out  of  consultancy
[01:44] 
[01:44] and  I  want  to  move  to  San  Francisco
[01:45] 
[01:45] because  apparently  that's  where
[01:46] 
[01:46] everything  is  happening  I  guess  that's
[01:48] 
[01:48] true
[01:49] 
[01:49] where  you  originated  from  Vancouver  born
[01:52] 
[01:52] and  raised  Vancouver  yeah  so  SF  was  the
[01:54] 
[01:54] first  time  I  sort  of  I  mean  I  grew  up  in
[01:55] 
[01:55] a  country  so  I  went  to  Vancouver  at  one
[01:57] 
[01:57] point  proper  but  yeah  I  definitely  SF
[01:59] 
[01:59] was  my  first  big  move  yeah  I  moved  to  a
[02:01] 
[02:01] sauna  actually  as  a  product  designer
[02:03] 
[02:03] started  I  think  three  or  four  months
[02:05] 
[02:05] before  Marcos  did  worked  on  the  mobile
[02:09] 
[02:09] native  app  redesigns  for  Android  and  iOS
[02:11] 
[02:11] I'd  been  managing  a  team  before  and  I
[02:13] 
[02:13] wanted  to  kind  of  go  back  into  design
[02:15] 
[02:15] you  know  that  moment  of  like  losing  your
[02:16] 
[02:16] craft  or  wondering  existentially  like  is
[02:19] 
[02:19] this  what  I  want  to  do  for  the  rest  of
[02:20] 
[02:20] my  life  and  I  found  after  about  a  year
[02:22] 
[02:22] and  a  half  that  it  was  so  I  started
[02:24] 
[02:24] managing  product  designers  then
[02:26] 
[02:26] eventually  started  managing  all  the
[02:27] 
[02:27] product  designers  and  about  two  and  a
[02:30] 
[02:30] half  years  ago  our  old  had  a  design
[02:32] 
[02:32] moved  on  Facebook
[02:34] 
[02:34] kind  of  grab  the  reins  from  there  okay
[02:36] 
[02:36] well  interesting  story  so  tell  us  a
[02:38] 
[02:38] little  bit  more  about  what  is  the  Senate
[02:40] 
[02:40] doing
[02:41] 
[02:41] like  most  people  know  the  product  I'm
[02:43] 
[02:43] sure  but  give  us  some  perspective  ah
[02:44] 
[02:44] doing  pretty  well  it  seems  I  think  asana
[02:48] 
[02:48] is  we  always  send  somewhat  struggled  how
[02:52] 
[02:52] to  describe  it  and  some  people  think
[02:54] 
[02:54] it's  project  management  some  people
[02:55] 
[02:55] think  it's  collaboration  there's  quickly
[02:58] 
[02:58] a  category  developing  called  work
[02:59] 
[02:59] management  or  work  tracking  and  that's  a
[03:01] 
[03:01] really  good  descriptor  of  what  we  do
[03:03] 
[03:03] effectively  asana  wants  to  be  able  to
[03:05] 
[03:05] help  everyone  understand  how  the  work
[03:07] 
[03:07] they're  doing  in  the  day  to  day  can
[03:09] 
[03:09] really  connect  up  to  the  you  know
[03:10] 
[03:10] missions  objectives  the  things  that  the
[03:13] 
[03:13] cutter  driving  the  company  at  a  high
[03:14] 
[03:14] level  so  aspirationally  that's  where
[03:16] 
[03:16] we're  heading  so  in  a  lot  of  ways  the
[03:18] 
[03:18] features  that  we  launched  have  really
[03:19] 
[03:19] been  about  projects  and  tasks  in  the
[03:20] 
[03:20] past  and  we're  sort  of  sort  of  move
[03:22] 
[03:22] beyond  that  now  okay  and  what  would  be
[03:26] 
[03:26] another  solution  that's  kind  of  similar
[03:28] 
[03:28] to  asana  what  would  their  competitors  be
[03:31] 
[03:31] exhausted  just  say  the  most  famous
[03:34] 
[03:34] people  already  know  smartsheet  who  IP
[03:37] 
[03:37] owed  a  little  while  ago
[03:38] 
[03:38] they're  probably  sort  of  the  the  most
[03:40] 
[03:40] public  of  them  Trello  certainly  that
[03:42] 
[03:42] kind  of  ilk
[03:43] 
[03:43] there's  it  sort  of  the  distance  you  can
[03:46] 
[03:46] think  of  people  like  you  know  during
[03:47] 
[03:47] Atlassian  are  also  in  that  space  I  mean
[03:49] 
[03:49] at  last  you  don't  Strela  so  by  nature  of
[03:51] 
[03:51] that  there  are  a  lot  of  there  are  a  lot
[03:52] 
[03:52] of  competitors  trying  to  jump  into  that
[03:54] 
[03:54] space  like  I  like  Dropbox  try  to  like
[03:56] 
[03:56] kind  of  getting  there  and  like  other
[03:58] 
[03:58] ones  I  don't  know  there's  it's
[04:00] 
[04:00] interesting  because  a  lot  of  people  like
[04:01] 
[04:01] oh  are  you  competing  with  slack  and  the
[04:03] 
[04:03] answer  is  no  we're  not  completing  the
[04:04] 
[04:04] slack  we  really  try  to  think  about  that
[04:07] 
[04:07] things  you  need  to  do  your  work  there's
[04:09] 
[04:09] things  like  messaging  there's  things
[04:11] 
[04:11] like  data  storage  which  is  clearly
[04:12] 
[04:12] Dropbox  and  then  work  tracking  it's  kind
[04:14] 
[04:14] of  this  new  emergent  thing  so  we  sort  of
[04:16] 
[04:16] saw  messaging  blow  up  obviously  seeing
[04:18] 
[04:18] slack  doing  as  well  as  it  is  but  we
[04:20] 
[04:20] definitely  think  them  is  more
[04:22] 
[04:22] synergistic  and  complementary  products
[04:24] 
[04:24] right  now  rather  than  direct  competitors
[04:26] 
[04:26] okay  and  you  know  be  the  the  story  of
[04:29] 
[04:29] asana  where  does  it  come  from  yeah
[04:32] 
[04:32] definitely
[04:33] 
[04:33] that  I  mean  the  the  shortest  version  of
[04:36] 
[04:36] that  story  is  Dustin  and  Justin  we're
[04:38] 
[04:38] working  at  Facebook  they  were  sort  of
[04:40] 
[04:40] fed  up  about  how  work  was  being  done
[04:41] 
[04:41] they  developed  an  internal  product  that
[04:44] 
[04:44] Facebook  I  believe  still  uses  to  this
[04:46] 
[04:46] day  and  at  some  point  they're  like  oh
[04:49] 
[04:49] this  actually  might  be  a  really  healthy
[04:50] 
[04:50] business  I  think  I  was  in  about  2009  ish
[04:53] 
[04:53] and  yeah  they  basically  left  Facebook
[04:56] 
[04:56] together  formed  asana
[04:57] 
[04:57] and  started  going  from  there  I  think  our
[05:00] 
[05:00] public  launch  was  2012  or  so  I  could  be
[05:04] 
[05:04] wrong  on  the  number  so  there's  kind  of
[05:06] 
[05:06] like  a  bit  of  slow  going  early  but  yeah
[05:08] 
[05:08] they're  Justin's  really  got  a  very
[05:10] 
[05:10] strong  vision  as  far  as  wanting  to  make
[05:13] 
[05:13] work  more  effective  he's  super
[05:15] 
[05:15] passionate  about  the  amount  of  time  we
[05:17] 
[05:17] waste  doing  you  know  bureaucratic
[05:18] 
[05:18] and  frankly  I  also  should  have
[05:20] 
[05:20] asked  well  I'm  swear  on  this  podcast
[05:21] 
[05:21] it's  happened  now  so  yeah  really  a  lot
[05:26] 
[05:26] of  it  comes  from  their  sort  of
[05:28] 
[05:28] frustrations  and  angers  with  the  work
[05:31] 
[05:31] that  they've  experienced  and  not  just  on
[05:33] 
[05:33] the  product  side  but  you  know  from  a
[05:34] 
[05:34] purely  cultural  and  workplace  side  we
[05:37] 
[05:37] often  talk  about  asana  sort  of  having
[05:38] 
[05:38] two  products  one  being  the  actual
[05:40] 
[05:40] product  that  we  do  and  the  other  being
[05:42] 
[05:42] the  company  in  the  culture  that  has  been
[05:44] 
[05:44] built  up  sort  of  from  their  brainchild  a
[05:46] 
[05:46] lot  of  ways  and  do  you  think  the  fact
[05:48] 
[05:48] that  the  company  was  founded  by  former
[05:50] 
[05:50] founders  of  Facebook  you  know  in  the
[05:53] 
[05:53] amount  of  money  that  these  guys  had  when
[05:54] 
[05:54] they  started  the  company  had  any  effect
[05:56] 
[05:56] in  the  in  the  marketplace  in  the
[05:58] 
[05:58] industry  in  the  sector  I  think  that  we
[06:00] 
[06:00] have  yes  founders  certainly  yes  well  in
[06:06] 
[06:06] a  lot  of  we  want  to  be  seen  as  like
[06:09] 
[06:09] beyond  just  like  oh  Dustin's  startup
[06:11] 
[06:11] like  that's  definitely  what  you  see  in
[06:13] 
[06:13] the  press  but  there's  a  part  of  that
[06:15] 
[06:15] that  he's  actually  what  happened  yeah
[06:16] 
[06:16] absolutely  I  think  that  like  you  know  it
[06:19] 
[06:19] would  be  ignorant  to  say  that  none  of
[06:22] 
[06:22] our  success  is  riding  at  all  on  them  and
[06:24] 
[06:24] I  think  it  was  certainly  helpful  to  sort
[06:25] 
[06:25] of  get  that  word  out  early  that  being
[06:27] 
[06:27] said  you  know  the  company  has  definitely
[06:29] 
[06:29] taken  on  a  life  of  its  own  and  when  the
[06:31] 
[06:31] growth  we're  seeing  is  way  beyond  any  of
[06:33] 
[06:33] you  know  their  initial  amounts  ability
[06:35] 
[06:35] to  fund  and  things  like  that  okay  so
[06:37] 
[06:37] definitely  we  thought  these  these  growth
[06:39] 
[06:39] you  know  what  are  the  figures  that  we
[06:41] 
[06:41] can  we  can  share  you  know  the  revenue  of
[06:43] 
[06:43] the  company  at  the
[06:44] 
[06:44] I  can't  talk  about  the  revenue  at  the
[06:46] 
[06:46] moment  obviously  but  we  just  raised  in
[06:49] 
[06:49] January  again  to  get  the  1.5  billion
[06:52] 
[06:52] valuation  which  was  a  big  deal  for  us
[06:54] 
[06:54] it  was  the  second  raise  in  a  year  mainly
[06:57] 
[06:57] capitalizing  a  momentum  to  be  honest  so
[06:59] 
[06:59] at  that  much  money  in  subtle  ways  I
[07:01] 
[07:01] think  the  raise  was  only  50  around  there
[07:05] 
[07:05] and  at  that  time  we  had  a  hundred
[07:07] 
[07:07] million  and  they  are  and  the  sort  of  big
[07:10] 
[07:10] success  story  about  that  was  eight
[07:11] 
[07:11] quarters  of  consecutive  growth  so  we're
[07:14] 
[07:14] seeing  pretty  fantastic  growth  rates
[07:16] 
[07:16] especially  at  that  scale  of  revenue  okay
[07:19] 
[07:19] how  many  customers  or  something  like
[07:20] 
[07:21] that  60,000  paid  customers  at  that
[07:23] 
[07:23] moment  a  lot  yeah  and  I'm  assuming  the
[07:26] 
[07:26] the  average  size  of  customer  is  also
[07:27] 
[07:27] growing  over  time  right  at  the  beginning
[07:28] 
[07:28] I'm  sure  it  was  like  mom  and  pops  or  so
[07:30] 
[07:30] host
[07:31] 
[07:31] yeah  totally  small  business  small  medium
[07:33] 
[07:33] businesses  were  certainly  sort  of  that
[07:34] 
[07:34] random  butter  and  a  lot  of  how  it's  on
[07:36] 
[07:36] is  operated  is  very  much  a  bottoms-up
[07:37] 
[07:37] model  we  have  a  freemium  freemium
[07:40] 
[07:40] pricing  strategy  on  the  idea  with  that
[07:41] 
[07:41] is  that  we  didn't  have  to  have  a  huge
[07:43] 
[07:43] sales  team  to  go  out  and  get  these  leads
[07:44] 
[07:44] so  early  on  a  lot  of  our  customers  were
[07:46] 
[07:46] these  small  businesses  and  it's  still
[07:48] 
[07:48] like  a  meaningful  percentage  of  them  are
[07:50] 
[07:50] but  we're  seeing  as  you  know  we're
[07:52] 
[07:52] getting  more  attention  and  the
[07:53] 
[07:53] categories  frankly  getting  more
[07:54] 
[07:54] attention  that  we're  moving  we're  at
[07:56] 
[07:56] market  and  we're  seeing  larger  and
[07:57] 
[07:57] larger  customers  and  customers  not
[07:59] 
[07:59] necessarily  just  in  tech  so  a  lot  of  our
[08:02] 
[08:02] early  customers  were  you  know  early
[08:03] 
[08:03] adopters  people  at  tech  companies
[08:05] 
[08:05] frankly  and  as  times  gone  on  we're
[08:07] 
[08:07] seeing  people  in  you  know  less
[08:08] 
[08:09] conventional  industries  things  like  you
[08:11] 
[08:11] know  we  have  a  large  HVAC  company  that
[08:14] 
[08:14] runs  on  a  sauna  things  like  that  and  so
[08:15] 
[08:15] we're  definitely  sort  of  expanding  that
[08:17] 
[08:17] that  user  base  is  time  goes  on  and  do
[08:20] 
[08:20] you  have  sales  people  now  yeah  we
[08:21] 
[08:21] definitely  the  sales  team  so  ideally
[08:24] 
[08:24] it's  we're  we're  talking  a  hybrid  model
[08:26] 
[08:26] where  we  keep  getting  that  sort  of
[08:28] 
[08:28] self-service  bottoms-up  kind  of  revenue
[08:29] 
[08:30] while  also  especially  with  larger
[08:31] 
[08:31] companies  a  lot  of  those  are  sales  like
[08:33] 
[08:33] mandatory  you  know  it  stops  being  that
[08:37] 
[08:37] little  team  that  builds  it  up  and  more
[08:38] 
[08:38] like  you're  talking  to  a  stakeholder  at
[08:39] 
[08:39] the  high  end  and  in  that  way  the  sales
[08:41] 
[08:41] team  is  very  helpful  you're  still  frame
[08:43] 
[08:43] right  here  yes  that's  the  same  theory  I
[08:46] 
[08:46] think  like  when  I  was  there  like  that
[08:47] 
[08:47] was  the  whole  whole  point  of  is  like  we
[08:50] 
[08:50] don't  want  to  be  top  bottom  one  of  the
[08:51] 
[08:51] bottom  up  want  people  to  just  adopt  the
[08:54] 
[08:54] tool
[08:55] 
[08:55] the  team  growing  into  the  tool  and
[08:56] 
[08:56] having  to  like  just  purchase  it  I  think
[08:59] 
[08:59] that  Airtel  or  another  like  software
[09:01] 
[09:01] other  ones  like  slack  and  zoom  I  mean
[09:04] 
[09:04] they're  do  massive  successful  IPOs  that
[09:06] 
[09:06] are  going  on  right  now  they're  great
[09:08] 
[09:08] advocates  of  these  bottoms-up  right  yeah
[09:10] 
[09:10] like  one  person  gets  a  software
[09:12] 
[09:12] eventually  pulls  out  the  credit  card
[09:14] 
[09:14] eventually  you  know  procurement  decides
[09:16] 
[09:16] to  buy  for  everybody  yeah  and  that's
[09:18] 
[09:18] still  very  much  like  core  of  the
[09:20] 
[09:20] philosophy  is  this  idea  of  like  we  want
[09:21] 
[09:21] software  that  is  great  to  use  that  the
[09:23] 
[09:23] people  the  companies  are  become
[09:24] 
[09:24] advocates  for  it  that's  a  new  thing  I
[09:27] 
[09:27] mean  that  was  no  it's  seeing  10  years
[09:28] 
[09:28] ago  yeah  a  wave  that's  been  invented  by
[09:31] 
[09:31] these  disk  integrity  of  companies  that's
[09:32] 
[09:32] really  interesting  patterns  yeah  like
[09:34] 
[09:34] that's  sort  of  a  new  wave  SAS  very  much
[09:36] 
[09:36] is  like  very  user  centric  very  design
[09:38] 
[09:38] centric  and  then  also  yeah  we  want  to
[09:40] 
[09:40] empower  people  who  are  doing  the  work  to
[09:42] 
[09:42] make  the  decisions  rather  than  having  to
[09:43] 
[09:43] be  these  big  top-down  decisions  it  also
[09:45] 
[09:45] means  the  company  is  in  sales  driven  in
[09:47] 
[09:47] the  way  that  Enterprise  companies  are
[09:49] 
[09:49] historically  sales  driven  so  you  think
[09:50] 
[09:50] of  people  like  Salesforce  where  you
[09:52] 
[09:52] basically  build  a  product  that  is  good
[09:54] 
[09:54] enough  and  then  you  just  juice  the  hell
[09:55] 
[09:55] out  of  it  with  sales  and  that's  it  and
[09:57] 
[09:57] then  a  lot  of  the  product  development  is
[09:58] 
[09:58] driven  by  sales  and  customer  requests
[10:01] 
[10:01] rather  than  product  thinking  and  we
[10:03] 
[10:03] definitely  self-described  ourselves  as  a
[10:05] 
[10:05] product  led  company  and  while  that  means
[10:07] 
[10:07] we  have  a  really  nice  link  between
[10:08] 
[10:08] product  and  business  obviously  it's  not
[10:10] 
[10:10] the  case  that  you  know  sales  is  driving
[10:12] 
[10:12] the  entire  roadmap  of  asana  yeah  I  mean
[10:14] 
[10:14] actually  like  people  love  the  the  tool
[10:17] 
[10:17] like  people  love  the  software  and  is  the
[10:19] 
[10:19] culture  around  it  like  to  the  point  that
[10:21] 
[10:21] some  people  ended  up  like  loving  it  so
[10:23] 
[10:23] much  to  join  the  company  eventually  I
[10:25] 
[10:25] know  people  that  just  used  it  make  like
[10:28] 
[10:28] a  whole  company  use  it  eventually  when
[10:30] 
[10:30] they  see  a  position  he's  go  for  it  and
[10:32] 
[10:32] ended  up  like  I  have  friends  that  still
[10:34] 
[10:34] work  at  asana
[10:34] 
[10:34] that's  how  they  got  in  there  the  I  knew
[10:37] 
[10:37] had  a  customer  success  was  a  huge  asana
[10:39] 
[10:39] champion  and  he  was  helping  he  had  a
[10:42] 
[10:42] very  good  story  of  like  he  was  helping  I
[10:44] 
[10:44] forget  exactly  which  medical  thing  he
[10:47] 
[10:47] was  dealing  with  basically  reputation
[10:49] 
[10:49] and  like  opiate  epidemic  he  was  running
[10:52] 
[10:52] a  lot  of  that  and  then  that  was  kind  of
[10:54] 
[10:54] trucking  so  he  came  over  and  started
[10:55] 
[10:55] helped  us  so  so  Tyson  humans  you
[10:57] 
[10:57] mentioned  something  that's  really
[10:58] 
[10:58] interesting  you  said  that  customers  are
[11:00] 
[11:00] not  only  tech  companies  anymore  all
[11:02] 
[11:02] right  it's  like  that's  implying  that
[11:04] 
[11:04] they  used  to  be  mostly  tech  companies
[11:06] 
[11:06] right  and  and  I  think  that's  you  know
[11:08] 
[11:08] part  crazy  criticism  part  jealousy  from
[11:11] 
[11:11] other  parts  of  the  world  we're  in  the
[11:13] 
[11:13] Bay  Area  you  start  a  product  for
[11:15] 
[11:15] startups  and  for  tech  companies  the
[11:17] 
[11:17] ecosystem  the  the  bubble  they  are  our
[11:20] 
[11:20] you  know  college  is  so  strong  that  you
[11:22] 
[11:22] can  actually  make  millions  and  millions
[11:23] 
[11:23] in  revenues  just  by  selling  to  the  ganc
[11:26] 
[11:26] not  just  by  selling  to  the  other  stuff
[11:27] 
[11:27] yeah  and  in  fact  companies  and  so  on  and
[11:30] 
[11:30] over  the  past  couple  of  years  we've  seen
[11:31] 
[11:31] a  lot  more  global  expansions  so  we're
[11:34] 
[11:34] seeing  you  know  very  impressive  revenue
[11:35] 
[11:35] coming  from  outside  the  United  States
[11:37] 
[11:37] which  i  think  is  really  good  proof  for
[11:38] 
[11:38] us  that  we've  like  kind  of  busted  out  of
[11:40] 
[11:40] that  because  there's  definitely  an  echo
[11:41] 
[11:41] chamber  and  there's  definitely  this
[11:42] 
[11:42] moment  of  like  we  were  pretty  diligently
[11:44] 
[11:44] targeting  those  kind  of  folks  early  on
[11:46] 
[11:46] it's  fair  there's  a  lot  of  money's  right
[11:48] 
[11:48] I'm  trying  to  make  revenues  and  it  helps
[11:51] 
[11:51] you  like  grow  so  fast  when  everybody  is
[11:53] 
[11:53] using  you  everybody  in  a  confined  area
[11:55] 
[11:55] yeah  but  everybody  is  using  slack
[11:57] 
[11:57] everybody's  using  zoom  everybody  is
[11:58] 
[11:58] maybe  you  see  asana  and  that  helps  grow
[12:00] 
[12:00] and  then  eventually  break  this  but  what
[12:02] 
[12:02] I  want  to  add  something  there  how  much
[12:04] 
[12:04] do  you  think  like  you  go  for  like
[12:06] 
[12:06] because  when  I  was  there  I  felt  that
[12:07] 
[12:07] it's  easier  to  sell  to  these  companies
[12:09] 
[12:09] because  they're  open  to  try  new  things
[12:11] 
[12:11] they  just  want  to  be  more  effective  and
[12:13] 
[12:13] how  many  companies  and  it's  easier  to  go
[12:16] 
[12:16] to  a  startup  and  say  like  ok  just  try
[12:17] 
[12:18] this  new  software  and  it  just  will  be  on
[12:19] 
[12:19] board  with  it  and  I  think  that's  also
[12:21] 
[12:21] part  of  it  besides  like  also  like  the
[12:23] 
[12:23] kick  yeah  we  often  described  as  like
[12:26] 
[12:26] we're  targeting  early  adopters  and  that
[12:27] 
[12:27] just  implies  these  kind  of  very  tech
[12:29] 
[12:29] savvy  companies  that  are  willing  to  try
[12:31] 
[12:31] new  tools  and  new  processes  and  you  know
[12:33] 
[12:33] because  the  category  is  starting  to  form
[12:35] 
[12:35] up  and  there's  a  lot  of  people  starting
[12:36] 
[12:36] to  do  what  we  do  or  have  been  doing  what
[12:38] 
[12:38] we  do  now  the  companies  who  are  maybe
[12:40] 
[12:40] not  on  that  early  adopters  side  more  on
[12:42] 
[12:42] that  laggard  side  are  like  oh  I  heard
[12:44] 
[12:44] there's  this  thing  I  need  to  see  so
[12:46] 
[12:46] that's  kind  of  seen  the  tip  we're  seeing
[12:47] 
[12:47] now  it  was  similar  Slackware  was  like
[12:49] 
[12:49] what  is  what  is  this  instant  messaging
[12:51] 
[12:51] thing  and  then  there  was  like  a  critical
[12:53] 
[12:53] mass  of  people  that  it  kind  of  flipped
[12:54] 
[12:54] and  now  everyone  is  using  it  so  the  hope
[12:56] 
[12:57] is  we  see  a  similar  thing  happened  and
[12:58] 
[12:58] so  what  was  the  face  of  the  company  when
[13:00] 
[13:00] when  was  you  two  guys  joined  more  like
[13:02] 
[13:02] at  the  same  time  huh  how  many  people  I
[13:04] 
[13:04] mean  customers
[13:05] 
[13:05] 60  people  when  I  into  yeah  I  think  I  was
[13:06] 
[13:06] like  45  people  somewhere  in  there  so
[13:09] 
[13:09] pretty  early  days  how  many  know  just
[13:11] 
[13:11] over  450  ish  global  in  yeah  not  in  San
[13:16] 
[13:16] Francisco  anymore
[13:17] 
[13:17] no  yeah  we  have  an  office
[13:19] 
[13:19] in  New  York  we  have  an  office  in  San
[13:21] 
[13:21] Francisco  and  offices  in  Dublin  and
[13:23] 
[13:23] we're  probably  opening  a  we'll  have  feed
[13:25] 
[13:25] em  aground  in  Tokyo  soon  well  we  have  a
[13:27] 
[13:27] development  office  in  Vancouver  now
[13:28] 
[13:28] hometown  pride  I  was  like  the  only
[13:34] 
[13:34] person  to  work  in  all  the  we  have  one  in
[13:38] 
[13:38] rec  you  Vic  now  there's  an  Australian
[13:40] 
[13:40] presence  so  yeah  we're  going  pretty  big
[13:42] 
[13:42] it  mainly  you  know  you  ever  think  of  its
[13:43] 
[13:43] response  to  the  fact  that  as  we  see  you
[13:45] 
[13:45] know  we're  getting  really  serious  about
[13:47] 
[13:47] global  it  makes  sense  especially  with
[13:49] 
[13:49] time  zones  and  sales  presence  and
[13:51] 
[13:51] support  it  makes  sense  to  have  more  feet
[13:53] 
[13:53] on  the  ground
[13:53] 
[13:53] speaking  of  global  what  do  you  think
[13:56] 
[13:56] would  have  happened  if  asana  was  founded
[13:58] 
[13:58] in  New  York  instead  of  San  Francisco  I
[14:02] 
[14:02] don't  know  is  probably  the  answer  to
[14:05] 
[14:05] that  Vancouver  maybe  yeah  but  Vancouver
[14:07] 
[14:07] doesn't  have  a  great  track  record  of
[14:09] 
[14:09] great  tech  I  think  hoot  sweets  probably
[14:11] 
[14:11] the  most  impressive  number  of  any  of
[14:14] 
[14:14] them  that  that  people  know  about  outside
[14:15] 
[14:15] of  Vancouver  and  they  just  laid  off
[14:16] 
[14:17] hundred  people  which  is  not  great  I  mean
[14:20] 
[14:20] I  think  there's  definitely  um  you  have
[14:22] 
[14:22] to  ask  yourself  a  question  with  our
[14:24] 
[14:24] founders  when  they  have  founded  it
[14:25] 
[14:25] anywhere  else  and  you  know  to  your
[14:28] 
[14:28] question  initially  which  is  like  did  the
[14:30] 
[14:30] founders  have  an  effect  on  our  success
[14:31] 
[14:31] like  very  likely  and  their  success  was
[14:34] 
[14:34] from  San  Francisco  so  it  kind  of  makes
[14:35] 
[14:35] sense  so  I  think  there's  this  question
[14:37] 
[14:37] of  what  that  group  of  people  have  gotten
[14:38] 
[14:38] together  under  those  set  of
[14:40] 
[14:40] circumstances  in  another  city  I  would
[14:42] 
[14:42] like  to  hope  idealistically  that  it
[14:43] 
[14:43] doesn't  matter  where  you're  founded  it
[14:45] 
[14:45] matters  what  the  quality  of  your  product
[14:47] 
[14:47] is  and  what  the  reach  is  so  let  me
[14:50] 
[14:50] phrase  it  the  different  way  imagine
[14:51] 
[14:51] there  is  a  couple  of  founders  that  are
[14:54] 
[14:54] listening  to  this  podcast  right  now  and
[14:55] 
[14:55] they're  coming  up  with  the  next  asana
[14:57] 
[14:57] you  know  the  idea  that's  gonna  kill  us
[14:59] 
[14:59] Anna  yeah  we  hope  it  doesn't  happen  but
[15:00] 
[15:00] I  mean  maybe  it  happens  you  know  and
[15:02] 
[15:02] maybe  these  two  guys  have  this  really
[15:04] 
[15:04] really  brilliant  idea  and  they're
[15:06] 
[15:06] considering  starting  a  company  would  you
[15:08] 
[15:08] move  to  the  Bay  Area  to  start  the
[15:09] 
[15:09] company  I  don't  have  a  great  answer  to
[15:15] 
[15:15] that  question  I  want  to  say  no  I  want  to
[15:19] 
[15:19] believe  that  like  it's  the  internet  and
[15:21] 
[15:21] it  shouldn't  matter  where  your  base  you
[15:23] 
[15:23] know  I  think  that  there's  a  market  in
[15:26] 
[15:26] San  Francisco  that  is  just  a  ton  of
[15:29] 
[15:29] people  with  a  ton  of  money  who  are
[15:30] 
[15:30] excited  about  new  technology  so
[15:33] 
[15:33] whether  you're  founded  in  San  Francisco
[15:34] 
[15:34] or  you  market  toward  San  Francisco  I
[15:36] 
[15:36] think  is  more  of  the  question  so  it's
[15:37] 
[15:37] more  do  you  want  to  exploit  that
[15:39] 
[15:39] audience  more  so  than  does  it  matter
[15:41] 
[15:41] where  you're  founded  so  to  those
[15:43] 
[15:43] founders  I  think  there's  a  question  of
[15:44] 
[15:44] like  is  the  market  opportunity  bigger
[15:47] 
[15:47] there  you  have  to  wonder  with  the  space
[15:50] 
[15:50] heating  up  in  the  way  that  it  is  whether
[15:53] 
[15:53] or  not  that's  still  the  right  stage  of
[15:56] 
[15:56] company  to  go  after  or  have  we  kind  of
[15:57] 
[15:58] cross  that  tipping  point  and  now  you
[15:59] 
[15:59] should  be  able  to  come  up  with  a  work
[16:01] 
[16:01] management  product  no  matter  where  you
[16:02] 
[16:02] are  cuz  the  market  is  seemingly  more
[16:04] 
[16:04] hungry  for  that  than  it  was  we're
[16:06] 
[16:06] talking  about  San  Francisco  a  lot  in  the
[16:08] 
[16:08] Bay  Area  yeah  I  think  and  I've  heard  a
[16:10] 
[16:10] lot  of  people  are  moving  to  Dallas
[16:11] 
[16:11] apparently  there's  there's  definitely  a
[16:14] 
[16:14] couple  of  places  that  are  propping  up
[16:16] 
[16:16] Sanders  has  been  seeing  San  Francisco  is
[16:19] 
[16:19] a  city  that  is  fraught  with  many  issues
[16:22] 
[16:22] expense  and  other  things  included  you're
[16:25] 
[16:25] definitely  seeing  a  lot  of  folks  kind  of
[16:26] 
[16:26] breakout  remote  work  is  becoming  super
[16:28] 
[16:28] popular
[16:30] 
[16:30] so  crime  stripe  is  just  launching  a  huge
[16:32] 
[16:32] hop  that  he's  purely  remote  right  yep
[16:34] 
[16:34] envision  is  only  remote  like  all  of
[16:37] 
[16:37] their  employees  are  remote  they  have
[16:39] 
[16:39] like  an  off-site  to  come  together  but
[16:41] 
[16:41] otherwise  they're  entirely  remote  so
[16:42] 
[16:42] that's  becoming  more  of  a  common  trends
[16:43] 
[16:43] so  I  think  you're  seeing  folks  in  SF
[16:45] 
[16:45] being  like  wall  if  I  can  go  and  live  in
[16:47] 
[16:47] Northern  California  or  Colorado  or
[16:50] 
[16:50] Oregon  or  something  like  that  and
[16:52] 
[16:52] cost-of-living  drops  but  I  can  still
[16:54] 
[16:54] work  for  a  tech  company  with  a  great
[16:56] 
[16:56] wage  why  wouldn't  I  then  you're  also
[16:59] 
[16:59] seeing  just  like  hubs  like  Denver's
[17:01] 
[17:01] become  quite  popular
[17:02] 
[17:02] you're  seeing  who's  over  there  Augusto's
[17:04] 
[17:04] over  there  slack  is  over  there
[17:06] 
[17:06] Microsoft  is  probably  over  there  you've
[17:08] 
[17:08] seen  a  lot  of  these  companies  open  up
[17:09] 
[17:09] offices  in  places  like  Denver  as  well  we
[17:11] 
[17:11] saw  it
[17:12] 
[17:12] thanks  to  asana  people  can  work  remotely
[17:13] 
[17:13] now  yes  that  is  the  promise
[17:16] 
[17:16] interestingly  like  as  a  company  we
[17:18] 
[17:18] aren't  we  definitely  are  getting  better
[17:20] 
[17:20] at  this  as  we  do  more  offices  but  we
[17:22] 
[17:22] still  don't  have  a  ton  of  remote
[17:23] 
[17:23] employees  like  pure  employs  I  mean
[17:27] 
[17:27] reflecting  on  this  topping  now  probably
[17:29] 
[17:29] you  know  an  asana  killer  potential  new
[17:32] 
[17:32] startup  would  be  you  know  mostly  small
[17:34] 
[17:34] SME  company  so  they  don't  need  a
[17:36] 
[17:36] face-to-face  direct  sales  force  so  they
[17:39] 
[17:39] could  do  that  remotely  they  would  mostly
[17:41] 
[17:41] be  organic  you  know  growth  SEO  and  stuff
[17:44] 
[17:44] like  that  which  you  can  do  from  anywhere
[17:45] 
[17:45] yeah  venture  capital  is  something  that's
[17:48] 
[17:49] definitely  stronger  in  the  Bay  Area  but
[17:50] 
[17:50] it's  also  been  maturing  a  lot  outside
[17:52] 
[17:52] like  I  remember  when  when  we  were  trying
[17:54] 
[17:54] to  raise  our  Series  A  at  their  previous
[17:55] 
[17:55] company  red  boots  also  in  the  space  of  a
[17:57] 
[17:57] sauna  we  tried  to  pitch  size  in
[18:01] 
[18:01] Barcelona  and  most  people  didn't  really
[18:03] 
[18:03] know  any  SAS  businesses  here  and  we
[18:05] 
[18:05] actually  moved  to  San  Francisco  to  raise
[18:07] 
[18:07] our  Series  A  there  but  for  factorial  for
[18:10] 
[18:10] for  for  a  company  now  that  changed  a  lot
[18:12] 
[18:12] so  in  the  last  five  six  years  the  market
[18:15] 
[18:15] matured  a  lot  and  and  I  guess  VC  is  not
[18:17] 
[18:17] it's  not  the  challenge  anymore
[18:18] 
[18:18] the  only  question  is  talent  right  so
[18:21] 
[18:21] where  is  the  talent  yeah  I  mean  I  moved
[18:23] 
[18:23] to  San  Francisco  like  you  know  we  were
[18:26] 
[18:26] not  there  right  so  no  talent  right
[18:28] 
[18:28] that's  somebody  we  joined  the  sauna  to
[18:30] 
[18:30] contribute  to  its  talent  pool  I  think
[18:32] 
[18:32] that  San  Francisco  has  a  draw  though
[18:33] 
[18:33] this  idea  that  if  you  go  down  there
[18:35] 
[18:35] you'll  be  among  really  great  talents
[18:36] 
[18:36] like  I  definitely  think  a  big  motivating
[18:38] 
[18:38] factor  for  me  it  was  like  seeing  people
[18:40] 
[18:40] I  really  respected  move  down  there  and
[18:42] 
[18:42] being  like  oh  I  kind  of  want  to  be  where
[18:43] 
[18:43] the  actions  happening  so  I  think  I  don't
[18:46] 
[18:46] know  how  true  this  is  today  given  I
[18:47] 
[18:47] haven't  like  gone  out  in  the  labor
[18:49] 
[18:49] market  but  there's  definitely  still  this
[18:52] 
[18:52] like  cash  I  think  especially  from
[18:53] 
[18:53] outside  the  city  people  in  San  Francisco
[18:55] 
[18:55] are  I  don't  know  you  get  jaded  and
[18:56] 
[18:56] bitter  and  those  things  I  think  I'm
[18:59] 
[18:59] still  pretty  happy  about  most  stuff  but
[19:01] 
[19:01] like  from  outside  SF  still  feels  like
[19:03] 
[19:03] this  weird  jewel  of  a  city  where  like  oh
[19:06] 
[19:06] my  god  I  can  go  there  and  get  my  like
[19:07] 
[19:07] all  my  tech  dreams  will  come  true  and  I
[19:10] 
[19:10] think  it  still  has  a  bit  of  that  cachet
[19:12] 
[19:12] so  I  think  whether  or  not  you  can  the
[19:15] 
[19:15] talent  exists  elsewhere  I  think  good
[19:17] 
[19:17] talent  is  still  drawn  to  the  idea  of  it
[19:19] 
[19:19] so  you're  gonna  have  people  like  me
[19:21] 
[19:21] decided  not  to  go  to  another  company  in
[19:23] 
[19:23] Vancouver  decided  very  very
[19:24] 
[19:24] intentionally  to  say  no  the  tech  scene
[19:26] 
[19:26] here  sucks
[19:27] 
[19:27] I'm  moving  to  San  Francisco  because  I
[19:29] 
[19:29] want  to  like  I  fully  thought  I  was  gonna
[19:31] 
[19:31] move  there  spend  about  two  or  three
[19:32] 
[19:32] years  do  my  million  hour  weeks  and  do  my
[19:36] 
[19:36] tour  and  go  back  to  Vancouver  and  be
[19:37] 
[19:37] like  look  I  got  my  San  Francisco  resume
[19:39] 
[19:39] credit  now  I'm  gonna  job  wherever  one
[19:40] 
[19:40] man  Coover  but  it  definitely  had  that
[19:42] 
[19:42] draw  and  I  think  that's  a  weird  thing
[19:44] 
[19:44] about  talent  is  like  this  sort  of
[19:46] 
[19:46] gravitational  pull  that  SF  tends  to  have
[19:49] 
[19:49] so  before  we  move  on  to  actually  design
[19:51] 
[19:51] product  and  so  on  which  i  think  is  super
[19:54] 
[19:54] interesting  you  just  mentioned  work
[19:55] 
[19:55] culture  right  you
[19:57] 
[19:57] like  thousand  hundred  thousand  million
[19:58] 
[19:58] hour  weeks  is  that  what's  happening  in
[20:01] 
[20:01] the  Bay  Area  I  think  there  was  a
[20:03] 
[20:03] perception  from  I  mean  the  answer  is  yes
[20:06] 
[20:06] at  some  companies  certainly  so  what
[20:07] 
[20:07] what's  an  okay  you  know  work  week  Oh  for
[20:11] 
[20:11] me
[20:11] 
[20:11] Assam  is  great  I  mean  the  Rio  no  no  just
[20:13] 
[20:13] for  you  like  on  average  or  Dammam  that's
[20:15] 
[20:15] a  good  question  I  don't  have  hard  stats
[20:17] 
[20:17] for  that  somebody  pull  him  out  of  my  but
[20:18] 
[20:18] your  friends  but  like  I  feel  like  the  60
[20:20] 
[20:20] to  80  hour  week  thing  is  a  thing  it's
[20:22] 
[20:22] the  thing  that  people  talk  about  it's
[20:23] 
[20:23] this  idea  of  like  oh  my  god  I'm  gonna
[20:25] 
[20:25] work  the  weekends  and  work  these  12-hour
[20:26] 
[20:26] days  we're  in  crunch  etc  etc  etc  and
[20:29] 
[20:29] that  that  was  certainly  like  the
[20:31] 
[20:31] perception  that  especially  for  smaller
[20:33] 
[20:33] startups  I  think  still  exists  today  I
[20:35] 
[20:35] think  there's  more  of  a  focus  on
[20:37] 
[20:37] work-life  balance  maybe  today  than  there
[20:38] 
[20:38] was  five  years  ago
[20:39] 
[20:39] yeah  there's  long  there  horror  stories
[20:42] 
[20:42] of  these  really  long  weeks  where  you're
[20:43] 
[20:43] like  I'm  not  gonna  go  home  I'm  just
[20:45] 
[20:45] going  to  work  you  know  while  I  was  there
[20:46] 
[20:46] and  I  I  mean  I  my  experience  is  really
[20:49] 
[20:49] weird  because  I  just  moved  from
[20:50] 
[20:50] Barcelona  to  San  Francisco  straight  to
[20:52] 
[20:52] sauna  in  the  San  Francisco  I've  never
[20:56] 
[20:56] been  to  like  a  real  company  of  like  like
[21:00] 
[21:00] that  I  guy  I  visited  some  friends  that
[21:02] 
[21:02] work  at  Dropbox  and  Facebook  and  you
[21:04] 
[21:04] will  see  them  working  on  a  Saturday  I
[21:05] 
[21:05] was  like  what  are  you  doing  because  the
[21:07] 
[21:07] culture  at  a  sauna  from  the  first  day  is
[21:09] 
[21:09] like  work  hard  play  hard  I  call  play
[21:11] 
[21:11] hard  work  hard  I  never  remember  the
[21:12] 
[21:13] order  but  it  means  like  just  do  your
[21:15] 
[21:15] best  work  and  then  just  go  home  like  for
[21:18] 
[21:18] example  you  don't  have  dinner  on  Fridays
[21:20] 
[21:20] Alesana  they  have  a  cafeteria  where  you
[21:22] 
[21:22] get  like  you  get  all  your  meals  every
[21:25] 
[21:25] night  dinner  every  other  day  yeah  but
[21:27] 
[21:27] you  don't  have  dinner  on  Fridays  they're
[21:29] 
[21:29] like  just  go  ahead  leave  your  life  be
[21:31] 
[21:31] happy  and  then  come  back  on  Monday  when
[21:33] 
[21:33] you're  rested  and  you're  well  I  think
[21:35] 
[21:35] yeah  I  think  that  sorry  no  go  ahead  what
[21:37] 
[21:37] do  you  think  like  how  much  like  Dustin
[21:39] 
[21:39] and  Justin  have  to  do  with  this  this
[21:42] 
[21:42] community  center  I  entirely  I  think  that
[21:45] 
[21:45] I  mean  the  food  things  an  interesting
[21:46] 
[21:46] aspect  of  it  because  food  you  know  I
[21:49] 
[21:49] heard  about  like  the  Freshman  Fifteen
[21:51] 
[21:51] when  he  moved  to  like  Facebook  or  Apple
[21:53] 
[21:53] or  Google  where  it's  like  oh  you're
[21:54] 
[21:54] gonna  eat  a  bunch  of  food  and  you're
[21:55] 
[21:55] gonna  like  gain  weight  and  I  remember
[21:56] 
[21:56] starting  in  a  sauna  and  being  like  oh  I
[21:57] 
[21:57] gotta  get  free  food  this  is  great  I'm  in
[21:59] 
[21:59] a  new  city  and  I  lost  weight  cuz  it's
[22:01] 
[22:01] super  healthy  and  the  main  motivation
[22:03] 
[22:03] behind  I  think  there's  a  lot  of  this
[22:05] 
[22:05] like  oh  you  get  three  meals  a  day
[22:06] 
[22:06] they're  trying  to  keep  you  there  longer
[22:07] 
[22:07] hours  I  think  that's  the  perception  yes
[22:10] 
[22:10] and  I  like  the  reality  is  if  you  look  at
[22:12] 
[22:12] the  attendance  that's  definitely  not
[22:13] 
[22:13] true  a  lot  of  like  as  far  as  like  lunch
[22:15] 
[22:15] is  very  well  attended  obviously  and  the
[22:17] 
[22:17] dinners  much  less  attended  than  lunch
[22:20] 
[22:20] you  know  we  employ  a  lot  of  folks  with
[22:21] 
[22:21] families  or  who  have  commutes  and  it
[22:23] 
[22:23] shouldn't  feel  like  you're  forced  to  say
[22:25] 
[22:25] so  the  motivation  behind  the  food  is
[22:27] 
[22:27] less  like  let's  keep  people  here  and
[22:29] 
[22:29] we're  like  if  we  give  people  not  crap
[22:30] 
[22:30] food  it's  a  great  chance  to  socialize
[22:33] 
[22:33] with  your  co-workers  as  a  manager  who's
[22:35] 
[22:35] a  ton  of  meetings  it's  a  really  great
[22:36] 
[22:36] way  to  make  sure  I  eat  well  even  if  I
[22:38] 
[22:38] only  have  15  or  30  minutes  I  can  go  I
[22:40] 
[22:40] can  get  a  whole  plate  of  food  I  don't
[22:42] 
[22:42] feel  like  crap
[22:43] 
[22:43] so  from  Dustin's  and  Justins  standpoint
[22:45] 
[22:45] you  know  they've  had  a  culinary  staff
[22:46] 
[22:46] for  long  before  I  got  there  Donnie  was
[22:49] 
[22:49] like  employee  numbers  yeah  like  employee
[22:53] 
[22:53] number  six  was  the  cuckoo  it  was  like
[22:54] 
[22:54] six  or  ten  yeah  really  early  and  a  lot
[22:57] 
[22:57] of  it  was  like  you  know  Dustin  had
[22:59] 
[22:59] ruined  himself  to  some  degree  at
[23:01] 
[23:01] Facebook  with  the  way  that  you  know  they
[23:03] 
[23:03] behaved  and  they  ate  and  I  think  a  lot
[23:05] 
[23:05] of  this  is  like  I  don't  want  people  to
[23:06] 
[23:06] make  that  same  mistake  I  want  people  to
[23:08] 
[23:08] actually  try  to  be  healthy  so  the  food
[23:10] 
[23:10] is  really  motivated  by  that  more  than
[23:12] 
[23:12] anything  else  and  there  definitely  is
[23:15] 
[23:15] not  having  the  whole  crunch  time  thing
[23:18] 
[23:18] is  a  double-edged  sword  because  in  some
[23:20] 
[23:20] ways  you're  like  yes  this  is  great
[23:21] 
[23:21] I  can  work  reasonable  hours  if  I  have  a
[23:23] 
[23:23] family  or  one  side  of  work  I  can
[23:25] 
[23:25] actually  engage  with  it  and  then  you've
[23:27] 
[23:27] gotta  start  asking  these  questions  like
[23:29] 
[23:29] could  we  be  working  harder  or  like  is
[23:30] 
[23:30] that  the  edge  I  think  you  know
[23:32] 
[23:32] objectively  no  that's  not  the  point  like
[23:34] 
[23:34] recharging  makes  you  more  effective  in
[23:35] 
[23:35] the  hours  that  you  are  there  and  I  think
[23:37] 
[23:37] everyone  in  the  company  like  deeply
[23:38] 
[23:38] believes  that  and  you  know  I've  seen  10x
[23:41] 
[23:41] growth  and  employees  and  that's  you  know
[23:43] 
[23:43] definitely  one  of  the  things  we've  held
[23:44] 
[23:44] on  to  is  we're  not  that  kind  of  company
[23:47] 
[23:47] where  we're  gonna  grind  our  people  into
[23:49] 
[23:49] the  ground
[23:49] 
[23:49] you  know  if  we're  gonna  meet  a  deadline
[23:51] 
[23:51] like  yeah  there  are  going  to  be  times
[23:52] 
[23:52] when  people  will  work  weekends  but  those
[23:54] 
[23:54] are  gonna  be  an  exception  not  a  rule
[23:55] 
[23:55] okay  so  let's  move  now  a  little  bit  more
[23:58] 
[23:58] into  the  you  know  hard  work  that  you
[24:00] 
[24:00] guys  do  over  there  so  tell  us  you're  a
[24:03] 
[24:03] head  of  design  asana
[24:04] 
[24:04] what  does  it  mean  to  be  a  head  of  design
[24:06] 
[24:06] so  to  give  a  little  context  on  the  team
[24:08] 
[24:08] we're  about  I  think  twenty  four  today
[24:10] 
[24:10] and  we  saw  the  designers  know  so  we  we
[24:13] 
[24:13] have  a  unified  team  so  it's  not  quite
[24:16] 
[24:16] half  and  half  it's  a  little  more  product
[24:18] 
[24:18] but  it's  progress  on  in  brand  design  so
[24:19] 
[24:19] product  design  being  basically  anything
[24:21] 
[24:21] that  you  see  in
[24:23] 
[24:23] or  in  the  application  itself  that's
[24:24] 
[24:24] mainly  a  product  design  let  initiative
[24:27] 
[24:27] and  then  any  literally  anything  else  is
[24:29] 
[24:29] ran  design  and  then  there's  a  life  a
[24:31] 
[24:31] blog  a  banner  PR  yeah  like  all  of  our
[24:35] 
[24:35] launch  campaigns  all  like  feature
[24:37] 
[24:37] launches  any  kind  of  brand  campaign  all
[24:39] 
[24:39] of  our  internal  sort  of  swag  and  events
[24:41] 
[24:41] anything  you  know  literally  anything
[24:44] 
[24:44] that's  not  yeah  that's  25  in  total  yeah
[24:46] 
[24:46] and  like  eight  and  sixteen  front  end  no
[24:50] 
[24:50] no  engineers  so  the  team  consists  of
[24:52] 
[24:52] there's  product  designers  all
[24:55] 
[24:55] generalists  so  we  don't  do  sort  of
[24:57] 
[24:57] visual  design  interaction  design
[24:58] 
[24:58] specialization  and  then  we're  split  into
[25:01] 
[25:01] three  pillars  on  the  product  side  so  we
[25:04] 
[25:04] adopt  the  three-legged  stool  the  triad
[25:07] 
[25:07] the  three  in  a  box  there's  like  a
[25:09] 
[25:09] million  names  for  it  but  the  idea  of
[25:10] 
[25:10] like  that  p.m.  design  engineer  sort  of
[25:12] 
[25:12] core  sort  of  you  can  see  it  every  level
[25:15] 
[25:15] abstractions  so  whether  that  be  at  a
[25:17] 
[25:17] program  levels  which  we  call  our  teams
[25:19] 
[25:19] at  the  pillar  level  and  then  kind  of
[25:21] 
[25:21] across  the  pillars  you'll  see  the  same
[25:23] 
[25:23] structure  and  then  all  teams  will  have  a
[25:25] 
[25:25] research  and  data  scientists  paired  with
[25:27] 
[25:27] them  and  help  them  with  qualitative  and
[25:29] 
[25:29] quantitative  insights  so  one  quest  and
[25:31] 
[25:31] for  a  couple  asked  are  you  are  you  like
[25:32] 
[25:32] a  technical  product  designer  or  more
[25:35] 
[25:35] like  artistic  product  designer  or
[25:37] 
[25:37] business  approach  designer  um  I  think  a
[25:40] 
[25:40] good  progress  liner  is  all  of  those
[25:41] 
[25:41] things  it's  not  you  know  certainly  as  we
[25:44] 
[25:44] think  about  what's  before  for  me  yeah
[25:46] 
[25:47] I'm  from  like  what  did  you  study  what  do
[25:49] 
[25:49] you  why  didn't  from  notably  I  did  not  go
[25:51] 
[25:51] to  school  which  makes  immigration  hard
[25:54] 
[25:54] but  tell  me  yeah  I  think  I  probably
[25:57] 
[25:57] describe  myself  as  an  artistic  designer
[25:59] 
[25:59] if  only  because  I  don't  think  a  lot  of
[26:01] 
[26:01] designers  who  grew  up  in  the  era  that  I
[26:03] 
[26:03] mean  you  and  I  grew  up  in  had  a  lot  of
[26:05] 
[26:05] exposure  to  things  that  product
[26:07] 
[26:07] designers  do  now  like  you  know  the
[26:09] 
[26:09] closest  thing  to  interaction  design  when
[26:10] 
[26:11] I  was  grabbing  the  designer  was  like  HCI
[26:12] 
[26:12] degrees  and  those  weren't  really
[26:14] 
[26:14] attended  by  designers  they  were  attended
[26:16] 
[26:16] by  people  who  were  designing  interfaces
[26:17] 
[26:17] like  the  mouse  or  things  like  that  so  I
[26:20] 
[26:20] think  in  a  sense  you  know  the  definition
[26:22] 
[26:22] that  we  have  as  a  product  designer  today
[26:24] 
[26:24] is  vastly  different  than  anything  I  grew
[26:26] 
[26:26] up  in  so  certainly  an  artistic
[26:28] 
[26:28] background  you  know  I  thought  it  would
[26:29] 
[26:29] mean  film  photography  when  I  was  really
[26:31] 
[26:31] okay  my  dad's  a  photographer  like  that
[26:33] 
[26:33] was  definitely  part  of  me  so  I  think
[26:35] 
[26:35] that's  where  I  came  from
[26:36] 
[26:36] and  your  team  do  you  think  it's  mostly
[26:39] 
[26:39] the  same  profile  like  more  the  visual
[26:41] 
[26:41] aspect  or  or  the  other  two  I  mean  the
[26:44] 
[26:44] answer  to  that  is  we  try  to  find  a
[26:46] 
[26:46] balance  right  so  if  you  think  of  the
[26:48] 
[26:48] sort  of  product  design  process  is  a
[26:49] 
[26:49] spectrum  from  this  early  days  strategy
[26:51] 
[26:51] to  actually  executing  and  you  know
[26:52] 
[26:52] working  with  a  developer  we  don't  do  a
[26:54] 
[26:54] ton  of  coding  as  design  at  a  sonic
[26:57] 
[26:57] currently  I  do  do  something  a  little  bit
[26:59] 
[26:59] the  tech  stack  is  not  super  easy  to  get
[27:02] 
[27:02] into  we're  developing  a  system  that
[27:04] 
[27:04] should  allow  us  to  get  more  hands-on  in
[27:07] 
[27:07] the  code  and  we  certainly  have  some
[27:08] 
[27:08] people  who  have  contributed  for  a  long
[27:10] 
[27:10] while  we  had  a  front-end  developer
[27:12] 
[27:12] almost  par  oh  yeah  the  design  okay  yeah
[27:15] 
[27:15] and  then  we  sent  him  to  develop  the
[27:17] 
[27:17] creepy  Y  vibes  through  the  rest  of  the
[27:18] 
[27:18] engineering  team  Tina's  great  Georgian
[27:21] 
[27:21] horse  so  for  us  when  we  think  of  that
[27:25] 
[27:25] spectrum  you  know  each  person  will  sort
[27:27] 
[27:27] of  spike  in  valley  in  different  places
[27:29] 
[27:29] you  know  some  folks  who  are  super  visual
[27:31] 
[27:31] like  you're  a  super  visual  designer
[27:33] 
[27:33] generally  speaking  and  you  know  some
[27:35] 
[27:35] people  come  from  a  very  different
[27:36] 
[27:36] background  where  they're  almost  more
[27:37] 
[27:37] like  a  p.m.  when  you  kind  of  sprint  at
[27:39] 
[27:39] them  and  the  reality  is  we  don't  want
[27:40] 
[27:40] you  know  we  need  a  balance  so  if  you
[27:42] 
[27:42] look  at  the  team  in  the  spectrum  we  want
[27:44] 
[27:44] like  a  nice  sort  of  even  balance  of  all
[27:45] 
[27:45] those  skills  so  when  we  think  about
[27:46] 
[27:46] building  it's  less  about  like  oh  we  need
[27:49] 
[27:49] to  have  someone  can  do  everything  and
[27:50] 
[27:50] more  looking  at  the  team  as  a  whole  mean
[27:52] 
[27:52] like  where  are  we  feeling  weaker
[27:53] 
[27:53] stronger  and  how  do  we  sort  of  assess
[27:55] 
[27:55] for  folks  who  might  better  fill  out  that
[27:57] 
[27:57] profile  you  could  also  think  of  that  at
[27:59] 
[27:59] like  a  program  level  as  well  there  are
[28:01] 
[28:01] certain  programs  that  are  very  system
[28:02] 
[28:02] centric  there  are  way  less  execution
[28:04] 
[28:04] centric  and  those  are  good  times  to  find
[28:07] 
[28:07] someone  who's  you  know  more  on  the  UX
[28:08] 
[28:08] side  for  lack  of  a  better  way  of  putting
[28:09] 
[28:09] in  okay  and  how  do  you  analyze  like  what
[28:12] 
[28:12] are  you  on  that  scale  yeah  I  mean  so  we
[28:15] 
[28:15] develop  common  in  C's  last  year  to  help
[28:17] 
[28:17] with  career  growth  and  we  try  to  use
[28:19] 
[28:19] those  competencies  not  just  in
[28:20] 
[28:20] conversations  with  existing  employees
[28:22] 
[28:22] but  also  using  them  to  assess  people  in
[28:23] 
[28:23] the  interview  process  so  you  know  if
[28:26] 
[28:26] this  all  works  perfectly  which  you  know
[28:28] 
[28:28] art  and  science  with  recruiting  but
[28:30] 
[28:30] ideally  you  are  being  assessed  on  the
[28:32] 
[28:32] same  competencies  that  you  will  be
[28:33] 
[28:33] assessed  on  throughout  your  time  in
[28:35] 
[28:35] asana  and  for  us  we  have  five  only  one
[28:38] 
[28:38] of  them  is  craft  so  craft  is  everything
[28:40] 
[28:40] to  do  with  like  execution  and
[28:42] 
[28:42] interaction  like  details  things  like
[28:44] 
[28:44] that
[28:44] 
[28:44] but  the  other  four  are  focused  more  on
[28:46] 
[28:46] that  soft  skill  side  so  you  have  things
[28:47] 
[28:47] like  empathy  and  analysis  which  is  all
[28:49] 
[28:49] about  thinking  about  quantitative  and
[28:51] 
[28:51] qualitative  insights  how  much  are  you
[28:53] 
[28:53] involved  in  that  process
[28:54] 
[28:54] how  much  keep  pulling  those  in  and
[28:56] 
[28:56] changing  your  design  we  called  influence
[28:58] 
[28:58] which  is  all  about  presentation  style
[28:59] 
[28:59] and  feedback  how  do  you  work  with
[29:01] 
[29:01] stakeholders  how  do  you  present  your
[29:03] 
[29:03] work  and  and  you  know  justify  and  show
[29:05] 
[29:05] your  rigor  we  have  another  one  on  team
[29:07] 
[29:07] building  that  one  tends  to  be  like  a  lot
[29:09] 
[29:09] about  sort  of  team  culture  recruiting  a
[29:11] 
[29:11] lot  of  the  management  skills  exist  in
[29:13] 
[29:13] that  competency  and  then  another  one
[29:15] 
[29:15] about  velocity  which  is  you  know  put
[29:17] 
[29:17] really  tightly  is  the  balance  of  quality
[29:19] 
[29:19] and  speed  can  you  use  the  process  to
[29:21] 
[29:21] build  great  product  but  not  necessarily
[29:23] 
[29:23] taking  forever  to  do  it  so  product
[29:26] 
[29:26] adherence  is  sort  of  process  adherence
[29:27] 
[29:27] is  kind  of  involved  in  that  so  we  use
[29:30] 
[29:30] those  skills  kind  of  look  across  the
[29:31] 
[29:31] team  on  an  individual  level  a  group
[29:33] 
[29:33] level  and  then  we  also  use  that  to
[29:35] 
[29:35] assess  candidates  and  then  there's
[29:37] 
[29:37] obviously  a  sliding  scale  inside  of  that
[29:39] 
[29:39] around  like  what  does  this  look  like
[29:40] 
[29:40] across  different  levels  of  expertise
[29:42] 
[29:42] mm-hmm  so  pretty  interesting  actually  so
[29:44] 
[29:44] we  are  with  the  twenty  five  design  team
[29:48] 
[29:48] yeah  who  do  you  interact  with  you
[29:50] 
[29:50] mentioned  PM's  you  mentioned  engineers
[29:52] 
[29:52] you  mentioned  a  bunch  of  other  people
[29:53] 
[29:53] for  me  personally  I  interact  with  a  lot
[29:56] 
[29:56] of  different  people  around  the  company
[29:57] 
[29:57] design  is  a  lot  of  the  reason  that
[30:00] 
[30:00] people  people  being  customers  quote  for
[30:03] 
[30:03] choosing  us  it's  also  been  to  some
[30:05] 
[30:05] degree  I  would  say  our  edge  especially
[30:07] 
[30:07] relative  to  a  lot  of  our  customers  our
[30:09] 
[30:09] competitors  I  should  say  so  for  me
[30:12] 
[30:12] because  we  straddle  both  the  brand  and
[30:14] 
[30:14] product  side  it  means  that  I'm  obviously
[30:16] 
[30:16] deeply  partnered  with  the  head  of
[30:17] 
[30:17] product  but  I'm  also  partnered  with  the
[30:18] 
[30:18] head  of  marketing  I  partner  with  people
[30:20] 
[30:20] in  business  the  brand  team  works  a  bunch
[30:22] 
[30:22] of  people  from  sales  and  customer  ops
[30:23] 
[30:23] and  customer  success  and  education  so
[30:26] 
[30:26] while  my  main  partners  tend  to  be  like
[30:27] 
[30:27] an  head  of  product  a  head  of  marketing
[30:29] 
[30:29] tend  to  be  my  like  two  really  big  key
[30:31] 
[30:31] points  and  then  obviously  the  design
[30:32] 
[30:32] leadership  on  the  team  as  well  so  for  me
[30:36] 
[30:36] it's  like  it's  keeping  context  on
[30:38] 
[30:38] ideally  everything  that's  going  on  at
[30:40] 
[30:40] the  company  so  delegation  becomes  pretty
[30:43] 
[30:43] important  like  I'm  not  seeing  every
[30:44] 
[30:44] single  video  we  do  for  education  but
[30:46] 
[30:46] knowing  that  design  is  involved  in  that
[30:48] 
[30:48] is  really  important  that's  a  touch  that
[30:50] 
[30:50] we  need  to  probably  double  down  on  more
[30:52] 
[30:52] than  anything  else  sort  of  like  you  were
[30:54] 
[30:54] describing  earlier  with  enterprise
[30:56] 
[30:56] companies  traditionally  being  pretty
[30:58] 
[30:58] sales  driven  and  pretty  you  know  not
[31:00] 
[31:00] super  product  forward  I  think  we've  seen
[31:02] 
[31:03] with  folks  like  slack  and  Trello  and  air
[31:05] 
[31:05] table  at  some  extent  design  is  becoming
[31:07] 
[31:07] a  lot  more  a  core  of  these  companies  and
[31:09] 
[31:09] while  that's  been  something  we've  been
[31:10] 
[31:10] able  to  rely  on  in  the  past  it's  really
[31:12] 
[31:12] important  in  the  future  that  we  like  I
[31:14] 
[31:14] think  our  responsibilities  design  team
[31:16] 
[31:16] is  to  double  down  on  that  because  what
[31:18] 
[31:18] was  unique  will  then  become  commonplace
[31:20] 
[31:20] and  if  we're  not  pushing  the  boundaries
[31:22] 
[31:22] there  it  will  no  longer  be  something
[31:24] 
[31:24] that  customers  quote  it's  like  the
[31:25] 
[31:25] reason  they  chose  us  um  I  want  to  go
[31:27] 
[31:27] back  to  one  of  the  things  that  you  said
[31:28] 
[31:28] you  were  talking  about  like  your
[31:29] 
[31:29] position  other  positions  like  what's  a
[31:31] 
[31:31] higher  key  and  asan  I  think  that's  a
[31:33] 
[31:33] very  juicy  comment  like  so  juicy  thing
[31:35] 
[31:35] to  talk  about
[31:36] 
[31:36] yeah  historically  speaking  as  asan  is  a
[31:38] 
[31:38] flat  org  and  I  think  we've  seen  through
[31:40] 
[31:40] growth  that  some  of  our  systems  are
[31:43] 
[31:43] working  in  some  of  the  mark  so  there's  a
[31:45] 
[31:45] degree  of  recognition  that  like  there
[31:46] 
[31:46] still  are  levels  of  abstraction  that
[31:48] 
[31:48] exist  and  there  needs  to  be  a  path  where
[31:51] 
[31:51] things  escalate  to  kind  of  a  white  space
[31:53] 
[31:53] for  also  my  role  in  a  nutshell  is  like
[31:55] 
[31:55] if  anything  in  design  is  wrong  I  am  100%
[31:59] 
[31:59] accountable  for  that  which  means  that
[32:01] 
[32:01] you  know  there  is  a  degree  of  hierarchy
[32:03] 
[32:03] there  there  are  managers  there  are
[32:04] 
[32:04] reports  and  we've  been  thinking  a  lot
[32:06] 
[32:06] about  how  our  culture  and  systems  need
[32:09] 
[32:09] to  develop  as  we  scale  without
[32:10] 
[32:10] necessarily  losing  the  part  of  us  that
[32:12] 
[32:12] there's  a  really  strong  belief  in  asana
[32:14] 
[32:14] in  general  that  anyone  should  be  able  to
[32:15] 
[32:15] say  anything  about  anything  and  the
[32:18] 
[32:18] moment  you  Institute  too  much  hierarchy
[32:20] 
[32:20] you  will  discourage  people  who  are  lower
[32:22] 
[32:22] in  the  totem  pole  from  feeling  like  they
[32:24] 
[32:24] have  a  voice  so  a  lot  of  what  we're
[32:26] 
[32:26] trying  to  balance  is  how  do  we  grow
[32:27] 
[32:27] while  keeping  that  goodness  inside  and
[32:30] 
[32:30] it  would  be  you  know  it  has  been  a  bit
[32:31] 
[32:31] of  a  challenge  and  I  think  we've  seen
[32:33] 
[32:33] you  know  like  doing  what  titles  do  we
[32:35] 
[32:35] know  these  are  conversations  that  we
[32:37] 
[32:37] have  on  a  really  regular  cadence  to  make
[32:39] 
[32:39] sure  that  we're  doing  the  right  thing
[32:40] 
[32:40] for  us  in  the  right  stage  of  growth  of
[32:41] 
[32:42] RAD
[32:42] 
[32:42] what's  the  representation  of  design  in
[32:45] 
[32:45] the  executive  team  depends  on  how  you
[32:49] 
[32:49] define  the  executive  teams  we  don't  have
[32:51] 
[32:51] like  a  C  suite  proper  okay  there  must  be
[32:55] 
[32:55] something  that  looks  like  an  executive  I
[32:57] 
[32:57] mean  I  think  maybe  the  closest  thing  for
[32:59] 
[32:59] us  is  company  planning
[33:01] 
[33:01] I  mean  the  reality  for  me  so  you  know
[33:04] 
[33:04] effectively  I'm  the  person  who  would  be
[33:08] 
[33:08] representing  you  know  company  level  the
[33:10] 
[33:10] thing  that  has  always  surprised  and
[33:12] 
[33:12] delighted  me  about  asana  is  there's
[33:14] 
[33:14] never  a  lack  of  access  if  I  need  it
[33:17] 
[33:17] I  think  the  big  challenge  for  me  as  we
[33:19] 
[33:19] grow  is  to  learn  what  my  influence  needs
[33:22] 
[33:22] to  be  it  when  you're  small  it's  easy
[33:23] 
[33:23] right  you  know  everyone  you  can  talk  to
[33:25] 
[33:25] everyone  it's  really  easy  to  have  that
[33:26] 
[33:27] influence  as  you  grow  you  know  the
[33:28] 
[33:28] company  gets  bigger  and  there's  more
[33:29] 
[33:29] people  involved  and  you  know  I'm  not  a
[33:33] 
[33:33] new  leader  like  I've  been  doing
[33:34] 
[33:34] leadership  for  a  long  time  but  leading
[33:35] 
[33:35] at  this  scale  is  a  new  thing  for  me  so
[33:37] 
[33:37] learning  how  to  like  exert  that
[33:38] 
[33:38] influence  and  and  be  where  I  need  to  be
[33:41] 
[33:41] as  a  designer  to  make  sure  the  company
[33:43] 
[33:43] is  doing  the  right  thing  is  something
[33:44] 
[33:44] that's  very  much  on  me  so  whether  or  not
[33:46] 
[33:46] I  sit  in  like  every  company  planning
[33:48] 
[33:48] meeting  does  not  mean  that  I  can't  it
[33:51] 
[33:51] doesn't  mean  that  I  can't  be  like  Oh
[33:52] 
[33:52] have  this  thing  we  need  to  talk  about  or
[33:53] 
[33:53] I'm  not  involved  in  these  big  strategic
[33:55] 
[33:55] discussions  and  ultimately  like  we  are
[33:58] 
[33:58] product  led  company  and  I  am  deeply
[34:00] 
[34:00] deeply  involved  in  the  development  of
[34:01] 
[34:01] that  roadmap  and  I  think  that  in  a  lot
[34:03] 
[34:03] of  ways  it's  like  the  most  influential
[34:05] 
[34:05] place  the  designer  could  be  at  somewhere
[34:07] 
[34:07] like  asana  perfect  roadmap  yeah  stay
[34:09] 
[34:09] there  okay  how  does  the  roadmap  look
[34:11] 
[34:11] like  where  does  it  come  from
[34:13] 
[34:13] so  imagine  we're  done  with  everything
[34:15] 
[34:15] that  was  in  the  world  map  a  new  road  map
[34:16] 
[34:16] needs  to  come  or  a  duration  of  it  needs
[34:18] 
[34:18] to  come  what  happens  I  think  it's  gonna
[34:20] 
[34:20] change  honestly  in  the  future  so
[34:22] 
[34:22] historically  like  a  lot  of  that  was
[34:23] 
[34:23] driven  Justin  was  a  huge  part  of  that
[34:25] 
[34:25] and  he  there's  a  video  where  he  details
[34:27] 
[34:28] the  vision  of  asana  for  the  next  couple
[34:29] 
[34:29] years  that  his  you  know  we're  slowly
[34:31] 
[34:31] plotting  through  and  slowly  plotting
[34:32] 
[34:32] through  that  are  actually  quickly
[34:33] 
[34:33] plotting  through  it  and  anyone  can  watch
[34:35] 
[34:35] that  it  we  publicly  posted  it  here  a  bit
[34:37] 
[34:37] over  a  year  ago  so  historically  I  think
[34:40] 
[34:40] a  lot  of  it  came  from  him  and  it  wasn't
[34:41] 
[34:41] just  him  like  sitting  in  the  woods
[34:43] 
[34:43] coming  up  with  his  own  his  own  it  was  a
[34:44] 
[34:44] collaboration  but  like  he  drove  a  lot  of
[34:46] 
[34:46] it  and  we're  shifting  now  to  more  like
[34:48] 
[34:48] the  product  team  owns  that  road  map  and
[34:50] 
[34:50] that  means  designers  and  PMS  are  working
[34:53] 
[34:53] together  to  sort  of  look  you  know  in
[34:54] 
[34:54] conjunction  with  business  to  look  at
[34:56] 
[34:56] where  the  right  place  for  us  to  go  is  so
[34:58] 
[34:58] the  trite  answer  is  it's  collaboration
[35:00] 
[35:00] like  the  road  map  as  long  as  the  road
[35:01] 
[35:01] number  is  it  the  three-month  rope  not
[35:03] 
[35:03] one  month  one  year  years  we  definitely
[35:05] 
[35:05] plan  a  year  is  very  easy  to  see  and  I'd
[35:09] 
[35:09] say  with  right  now  like  we're  pretty
[35:11] 
[35:11] good  at  seeing  out  to  a  song  I  think
[35:13] 
[35:13] it's  been  really  good  at  seeing  out  like
[35:15] 
[35:15] really  long  time  ambition  is  definitely
[35:19] 
[35:19] like  something  the  leaders  have  done  a
[35:21] 
[35:21] pretty  good  job  of  like  really  doubling
[35:23] 
[35:23] down  on  like  no  we're  not  just  here  for
[35:25] 
[35:25] tech  companies  no  we  want  to  make  work
[35:27] 
[35:27] better  for  literally  everyone  who  does
[35:29] 
[35:29] work  that  yeah  that's  like  the  mission
[35:32] 
[35:32] strategy  for  us  is  transforming  to  you
[35:36] 
[35:36] know  product  initiatives  or  yeah  so  it's
[35:39] 
[35:39] a  collaboration  between  business  and
[35:40] 
[35:40] product  to  decide  like  what  is
[35:41] 
[35:41] strategically  important  right  now  what
[35:44] 
[35:44] are  the  things  that  we  think  are  vital
[35:45] 
[35:45] to  our  mission  what  are  things  that  are
[35:47] 
[35:47] maybe  inhibiting  customer  deals  so  we
[35:48] 
[35:48] try  to  take  in  a  whole  batch  of  this  to
[35:51] 
[35:51] actually  form  our  roadmaps
[35:52] 
[35:52] so  one  of  the  ways  we  work  with  the
[35:54] 
[35:54] business  teams  is  they  have  a  committee
[35:56] 
[35:56] that  basically  developed  a  list  and  it's
[35:57] 
[35:57] all  the  customer  phasing  teams  that's
[35:59] 
[35:59] sales  that's  marketing  that's  customer
[36:02] 
[36:02] like  all  of  them  come  together  and  they
[36:03] 
[36:03] basically  come  up  with  lists  which  is
[36:05] 
[36:05] like  hey  we  recently  yeah  it's  like
[36:07] 
[36:07] we're  hearing  all  this  stuff  from  the
[36:08] 
[36:08] customers  here  are  the  problems  we  see
[36:10] 
[36:10] we're  gonna  rank  them  for  you  and  like
[36:11] 
[36:11] we  want  you  to  consider  these  in  the
[36:13] 
[36:13] roadmap  that's  certainly  a  very  large
[36:15] 
[36:15] employ  that  will  be  a  public  thing  like
[36:16] 
[36:16] that  like  they  will  show  that  to
[36:18] 
[36:18] everyone  in  the  company  there's  like
[36:20] 
[36:20] every  now  and  then  there  also  we  have
[36:21] 
[36:22] like  the  future  asana  presentation  and
[36:23] 
[36:23] we're  just  able  to  like  that  and  talk
[36:25] 
[36:25] about  each  of  those  points  and  how  much
[36:27] 
[36:27] of  a  pain  those  were  okay  so  once  this
[36:29] 
[36:29] is  in  process  this  goes  to  product
[36:31] 
[36:31] design  engineering  yeah  goes  to  the
[36:33] 
[36:34] group  called  the  product  Planning  Group
[36:35] 
[36:35] and  that's  a  cohort  research  design  I
[36:38] 
[36:38] touched  the  table  a  research  design
[36:40] 
[36:40] engineering  and  and  p.m.  and  you
[36:43] 
[36:43] reordered  at  least  you  prioritize  it
[36:45] 
[36:45] it's  an  input  to  the  overall  roadmap  so
[36:47] 
[36:47] it  would  be  a  false  statement  say  that
[36:49] 
[36:49] we  take  that  list  and  we  just  rejigger
[36:50] 
[36:50] it  for  the  roadmap  because  there's
[36:51] 
[36:51] certainly  things  that  you  know  there's
[36:53] 
[36:53] an  amount  of  reaction  that  customers
[36:55] 
[36:55] have  and  then  there's  an  amount  of  stuff
[36:57] 
[36:57] that  we  think  is  proactively  important
[36:59] 
[36:59] or  strategically  important  that  we  need
[37:00] 
[37:00] to  have  in  the  roadmap  or  it  could  be
[37:02] 
[37:02] something  like  infrastructurally  or  or
[37:05] 
[37:05] you  know  corridor  experience  that  no
[37:07] 
[37:07] one's  going  to  call  out  specifically  but
[37:08] 
[37:08] we  know  is  important  based  on  a  bunch  of
[37:10] 
[37:10] different  sort  of  inputs  so  primarily
[37:13] 
[37:13] like  what  we  want  to  drive  the  roadmap
[37:14] 
[37:14] for  its  customer  insight  and  the
[37:16] 
[37:16] business  teams  give  us  a  really  great
[37:18] 
[37:18] insight  into  our  existing  customers  or
[37:20] 
[37:20] the  customers  that  maybe  we  didn't  win
[37:22] 
[37:22] but  then  the  product  team  really  needs
[37:24] 
[37:24] to  be  doing  a  lot  of  this  research
[37:25] 
[37:25] proactively  to  say  like  what  are  the
[37:27] 
[37:27] opportunities  for  us  what  are  the
[37:28] 
[37:28] customer  pains  that  maybe  we  haven't
[37:30] 
[37:30] discreetly  identified  through  the
[37:32] 
[37:32] customer  facing  teams  and  how  do  we
[37:33] 
[37:33] capitalize  on  those  so  it's  sort  of  a
[37:35] 
[37:35] hybrid  of  those  and  generally  speaking
[37:37] 
[37:37] we're  looking  you  know  out  a  whole  year
[37:39] 
[37:39] for  initiatives  in  a  pretty  concrete  way
[37:41] 
[37:41] and  then  we  have  kind  of  like  a  backlog
[37:44] 
[37:44] if  you  will  beyond  that  that  we  saw  how
[37:47] 
[37:47] will  read  rigor  how  big  or  how  small  are
[37:49] 
[37:49] these  initiatives  are  they  like
[37:51] 
[37:51] one-month  initiatives  three-month
[37:53] 
[37:53] initiative  like  each  one  of  them  how
[37:54] 
[37:54] long  was  it  the  mix  is  the  answer  so
[37:57] 
[37:57] between  those  two  numbers  yeah  I  mean
[37:58] 
[37:58] some  of  our  initiatives  would  be  quite
[38:00] 
[38:00] long  like  timeline  was  a  pretty  long  I
[38:02] 
[38:02] don't  remember  how  many  bands  to  us  yeah
[38:04] 
[38:04] yeah  exactly  like  that  was  probably  I
[38:07] 
[38:07] was  made  months  that  was  like  a  long
[38:10] 
[38:10] time  I  like  guys  it  was  like  it  was  yeah
[38:12] 
[38:12] it's  probably  like  from  just  on  a
[38:13] 
[38:13] timeline  and  we  actually  called  the
[38:14] 
[38:14] timeline  I  don't  know  like  when  the
[38:18] 
[38:18] project  started  like  we  had  the  vision
[38:20] 
[38:20] of  time  on  when  I  joined  a  sauna  I  was
[38:22] 
[38:22] like  2014  it  started  executing  on  that
[38:24] 
[38:24] in  2016  because  we  needed  like  to  fix
[38:27] 
[38:27] other  things  before  we  got  into  that  so
[38:29] 
[38:29] the  vision  was  there  long  long  before  we
[38:31] 
[38:31] get  yeah  and  in  some  ways  like  what
[38:33] 
[38:33] brought  it  up  to  the  top  was  more
[38:35] 
[38:35] knowing  that  it  became  important  it  was
[38:37] 
[38:37] timely  effectively  like  if  you  look  at
[38:39] 
[38:39] the  things  we  could  build  there's  a  man
[38:41] 
[38:41] always  like  a  name  exactly  that  so  a  lot
[38:44] 
[38:44] of  that  business  input  and  customer
[38:46] 
[38:46] insights  is  to  help  us  Whittle  that  list
[38:48] 
[38:48] down  or  at  least  rejigger  it  in  a  way
[38:50] 
[38:50] where  yes  we  now  know  we're  gonna  build
[38:51] 
[38:51] but  for  timeline  that's  something  it's
[38:53] 
[38:53] like  a  very  large  project  you  can  see
[38:55] 
[38:55] portfolios  that  released  in  November
[38:57] 
[38:57] also  one  of  those  bigger  projects  but
[38:59] 
[38:59] then  we  have  a  bunch  of  teams  working  on
[39:00] 
[39:00] things  that  are  smaller  we're  not  super
[39:03] 
[39:03] experiment  we  do  experiment  and  growth
[39:05] 
[39:05] but  we  don't  have  like  a  massive  growth
[39:06] 
[39:06] team  but  we  do  think  a  lot  about
[39:08] 
[39:08] adoption  so  you'll  see  those  teams
[39:10] 
[39:10] taking  on  like  smaller  things  like  maybe
[39:12] 
[39:12] we'll  try  a  couple  of  ways  to  you  know
[39:15] 
[39:15] better  the  the  new  user  experience  and
[39:16] 
[39:16] that  might  be  a  month  a  couple  of  months
[39:18] 
[39:18] woodie's  adoption  adoption  for  us  is  I
[39:22] 
[39:22] mean  it  basically  kimly  retain  the
[39:24] 
[39:24] customer  base  we  bring  in  so  when  you
[39:26] 
[39:26] come  to  a  sauna  a  big  challenge  for  us
[39:28] 
[39:28] is  like  will  especially  historically
[39:30] 
[39:30] a  son  is  really  flexible  and  it
[39:34] 
[39:34] very  hard  to  tell  what  the  value  of  it
[39:36] 
[39:36] is  unless  you  come  with  a  really  really
[39:37] 
[39:37] strong  idea  of  what  you  want  to  do  and
[39:40] 
[39:40] if  you're  not  that  person  you  might  be
[39:41] 
[39:41] like  cool  don't  know  how  it's  gonna  help
[39:42] 
[39:42] me  to  bounce  out  so  a  lot  of  adoption  is
[39:45] 
[39:45] thinking  like  how  do  you  show  that  value
[39:46] 
[39:46] how  do  you  show  someone  in  the  first  you
[39:48] 
[39:48] know  two  minutes  thirty  days  sixty  days
[39:51] 
[39:51] what  they  could  be  getting  out  of  it  and
[39:53] 
[39:53] that  that  plays  into  not  only  how  we
[39:55] 
[39:55] educate  people
[39:56] 
[39:56] you  know  we  launched  a  bunch  of
[39:57] 
[39:57] templates  more  more  recently  that  you
[39:59] 
[39:59] can  actually  like  search  on  Google  and
[40:01] 
[40:01] find  and  like  get  into  really  quickly
[40:02] 
[40:02] that's  a  really  concrete  way  of  saying
[40:04] 
[40:04] like  oh  you  were  looking  for  a  marketing
[40:05] 
[40:05] launch  calendar  here's  a  way  you  can  do
[40:07] 
[40:07] that  and  that's  something  we  hadn't  paid
[40:09] 
[40:09] off  as  well  as  we  could  have  in  the  past
[40:11] 
[40:11] so  a  lot  of  adoption  can  be  there's  a
[40:13] 
[40:13] bunch  of  initiatives  for  us  inside  of
[40:15] 
[40:15] adoption  because  that's  you  know  a  lot
[40:17] 
[40:17] of  ways  one  of  the  big  ways  for  us  to
[40:18] 
[40:18] get  better  and  better  services  so  I'm
[40:20] 
[40:20] assuming  you  have  a  formal  definition  of
[40:22] 
[40:22] adoption  right  so  of  an  adopted  company
[40:25] 
[40:25] is  our  sign  up  it's  a  sign  of  the  best
[40:27] 
[40:27] these  days  and  then  yeah  so  how  does  it
[40:29] 
[40:29] look  like  like  they  didn't  they  need  to
[40:31] 
[40:31] do  a  certain  activities  or  events  or
[40:33] 
[40:33] there's  more  people  on  those  activities
[40:35] 
[40:36] within  a  period  of  time  basically
[40:39] 
[40:39] so  how  sticky  are  we  being  and  I  won't
[40:41] 
[40:41] go  into  like  there's  a  time  frame  which
[40:45] 
[40:45] is  like  we  want  people  to  be  successful
[40:47] 
[40:47] in  this  timeframe  and  success  means  I
[40:49] 
[40:49] think  we  call  them  like  collaboration
[40:50] 
[40:50] metrics  but  it's  basically  a  couple  of
[40:51] 
[40:51] key  events  oh  my  gosh  he  has  to  know
[40:53] 
[40:53] like  oh  they're  doing  the  things  that
[40:54] 
[40:54] makes  people  successful  so  once  they  do
[40:56] 
[40:56] that  they're  probably  gonna  stay  using
[40:58] 
[40:58] the  project  for  awhile  and  potentially
[41:00] 
[41:00] convert  into  paid  customer  yeah  that's
[41:02] 
[41:02] some  conversion  yeah  ideally  you  know  we
[41:04] 
[41:04] have  a  trial  a  trial  and  process  now  so
[41:07] 
[41:07] ideally  but  it's  also  freemium  yes  so
[41:09] 
[41:09] you  have  free  forever  but  trial  of  the
[41:12] 
[41:12] paid  version  for  a  while  and  then  into
[41:14] 
[41:14] free  because  a  lot  of  like  understanding
[41:16] 
[41:16] how  the  features  work  together  in  our
[41:19] 
[41:19] more  premium  offerings  is  tough  to  sell
[41:21] 
[41:21] unless  you  really  see  it  so  having  a
[41:24] 
[41:24] trial  means  you  can  actually  go  in  and
[41:25] 
[41:25] you  didn't  did  you  all  the  stuff  of
[41:26] 
[41:26] trial  no  it's  not  okay  like  in  the  last
[41:28] 
[41:28] eight  months  I  didn't  know  so  on
[41:31] 
[41:31] abstract  for  you  know  in  the  industry  or
[41:34] 
[41:34] space  of  projects  like  asana  not  like
[41:36] 
[41:36] b2b  SAS  for  SME  and  growing
[41:40] 
[41:40] organizations  what  do  you  think  is  it
[41:42] 
[41:42] good  and  bad
[41:44] 
[41:44] retention  rate  for  the  or  how  they  say
[41:47] 
[41:47] adoption  rates  well  what  you  know  what
[41:49] 
[41:49] percentage  of  free  signups  the  thing
[41:51] 
[41:51] should  adopt  I  don't  have  a  great  number
[41:54] 
[41:54] year  for  them  for  that  like  what  about
[41:56] 
[41:56] the  range  that  you  think  like  it  should
[41:57] 
[41:57] never  be  less  than  that  and  I  find  it
[42:00] 
[42:00] very  very  hard  to  go  beyond  that  range
[42:03] 
[42:03] Eminem  I  don't  know  that  I  have  a  hard
[42:04] 
[42:04] range  I'd  be  willing  to  give  you  right
[42:06] 
[42:06] now  okay
[42:07] 
[42:07] because  I  think  it  can  vary  and  she  do
[42:10] 
[42:10] you  think  10%  is  reasonable  like  10%
[42:13] 
[42:13] from  10  percent  of  all  the  signups  adopt
[42:16] 
[42:16] you  know  like  they  do  whatever  key
[42:19] 
[42:19] events  are  or  do  you  think  that's  way
[42:21] 
[42:21] too  high  when  I  throw  on  there  I  think
[42:23] 
[42:24] that  that  that's  hard  and  this  base  I'm
[42:26] 
[42:26] talking  in  this  space  but  it  still
[42:28] 
[42:28] depends  well  I  gets  different  like  I
[42:30] 
[42:30] know  who  had  asked  to  get  that  number
[42:32] 
[42:32] yeah  but  like  yeah  like  we  have  people
[42:34] 
[42:34] for  that  the  thing  is  like  I  I  assume
[42:37] 
[42:37] that  it  depends  on  the  company  a  lot  and
[42:39] 
[42:39] like  I  know  you  mean  the  space  species
[42:41] 
[42:41] why  we  on  that  we  definitely  have  ranges
[42:44] 
[42:44] for  things  like  what  do  we  think  a  good
[42:46] 
[42:46] trial  conversion  rate  is  like
[42:47] 
[42:47] undoubtedly  I  am  in  this  moment  having
[42:50] 
[42:50] been  on  vacation  for  two  weeks  being
[42:51] 
[42:51] like  I'm  not  gonna  give  you  a  number  but
[42:53] 
[42:53] we  certainly  do  have  ranges  that  we  deem
[42:55] 
[42:55] acceptable  like  when  we  were  going  into
[42:57] 
[42:57] the  trials  process  we  knew  based  on  you
[42:59] 
[42:59] know
[42:59] 
[42:59] competitive  companies  companies  in
[43:01] 
[43:01] adjacent  to  us  we  knew  what  theirs  were
[43:03] 
[43:03] so  that  gave  us  a  benchmark  to  rate  how
[43:05] 
[43:05] we  were  doing  and  I  think  a  lot  of  that
[43:07] 
[43:07] to  your  point  is  like  there  is  a  number
[43:10] 
[43:10] that  people  believe  and  a  lot  of  it  I
[43:11] 
[43:11] think  is  us  having  people  from  peer
[43:13] 
[43:13] companies  knowing  people  a  peer
[43:15] 
[43:15] companies  but  really  looking  at  that
[43:16] 
[43:16] peer  company  set  and  saying  you  know
[43:18] 
[43:18] what  did  they  do  and  is  that  you  know
[43:20] 
[43:20] will  define  a  range  based  on  that  so  you
[43:22] 
[43:22] can  kind  of  look  at  a  peer  group  of
[43:23] 
[43:23] companies  get  the  data  you  can  get  and
[43:26] 
[43:26] then  you  can  form  and  ranges  based  on
[43:27] 
[43:27] that  and  then  those  are  obviously
[43:29] 
[43:29] informed  by  like  our  own  best  instincts
[43:31] 
[43:31] and  things  like  that  as  well  do  you
[43:32] 
[43:32] think  that  that  the  aha  moment  of  like
[43:34] 
[43:34] realizing  like  okay  I  understand  this
[43:37] 
[43:37] now  I  can  varietal  know  it  well
[43:42] 
[43:42] I  mean  KGB's  I  don't  know  the  number  off
[43:43] 
[43:43] the  top  of  my  head  like  we  definitely
[43:45] 
[43:45] have  a  lot  of  ways  that  we  analyze  the
[43:47] 
[43:47] funnel  and  we  have  areas  that  we  think
[43:48] 
[43:48] are  success  or  failure  one  hundred
[43:50] 
[43:50] percent  one  less  crazy  abuse  we  were
[43:52] 
[43:52] running  out  of  time
[43:54] 
[43:54] that's  product  design  have  a  goal  like
[43:56] 
[43:56] an  America  like  you  know  we  did  24  and
[43:59] 
[43:59] we  need  to  do  32  by  December  of  whatever
[44:02] 
[44:02] we  don't  have  a  lot  of  pure  cares  like
[44:05] 
[44:05] that  I  think  the  closest  thing  we  would
[44:07] 
[44:07] have  is  NPS  so  the  design  team  for  the
[44:11] 
[44:11] product  design  so  obviously  like  all
[44:13] 
[44:13] product  designers  on  their  programs  and
[44:15] 
[44:15] programs  will  have  very  discreet  carries
[44:17] 
[44:17] that  are  metrics  oriented  as  a  team  I
[44:18] 
[44:18] think  it's  something  we've  honestly
[44:20] 
[44:20] struggled  a  little  bit  with  which  is
[44:21] 
[44:21] like  what  is  our  team  mandate  metric
[44:22] 
[44:22] that  we  want  to  change  how  do  you
[44:23] 
[44:23] measure  success  yeah  and  I  think  that
[44:25] 
[44:25] it's  been  very  easy  to  rely  on  like  we
[44:27] 
[44:27] have  carriers  are  jus  per  prevalent  at
[44:29] 
[44:29] asana  in  general  so  it's  very  easy  we
[44:31] 
[44:31] have  a  lot  of  well-defined  objectives
[44:33] 
[44:33] and  those  latter  damit  k  ours  and
[44:34] 
[44:34] they're  for  the  most  part  very  metric
[44:36] 
[44:36] centric  so  that  we  can  look  at  those  and
[44:38] 
[44:38] be  like  well  I  know  that  my  product  was
[44:40] 
[44:40] a  success  because  I  built  this  feature
[44:42] 
[44:42] and  we  hit  our  K  hours  so  in  that  way
[44:44] 
[44:44] like  all  product  designers  on  programs
[44:46] 
[44:46] will  have  K  ARS  that  they  are
[44:47] 
[44:47] accountable  for  in  the  sense  of  the  team
[44:49] 
[44:49] together  is  accountable  for  them  as  a
[44:52] 
[44:52] design  team  specifically  and  PS  is  the
[44:54] 
[44:54] only  one  I  would  pick  out  and  I  it  would
[44:55] 
[44:55] be  probably  false  to  say  the  design  owns
[44:57] 
[44:57] NPS  because  it's  not  up  to  design  to  be
[45:00] 
[45:00] the  only  people  moving  that  but  for  me  I
[45:04] 
[45:04] think  NPS  is  a  good  representation  of
[45:06] 
[45:06] the  general  quality  and  what  we're
[45:08] 
[45:08] putting  out  there  so  I  think  that's  for
[45:09] 
[45:09] me  at  least  something  that  I  key  into  a
[45:10] 
[45:10] lot  and  something  I  would  love  to  see
[45:12] 
[45:12] rise  because  I  think  it's  a  good  leading
[45:13] 
[45:13] indicator  of  better  metrics  overall  and
[45:16] 
[45:16] what  would  you  think  is  the  goal  for
[45:19] 
[45:19] both  management  product  management  as  an
[45:23] 
[45:23] org  is  I  mean  a  lot  of  I  think  why  I
[45:25] 
[45:25] mean  ARR  obviously  is  it  will  dim  it
[45:27] 
[45:27] goal  I  guess  I  mean  yeah  one  of  our
[45:28] 
[45:28] objectives  is  certainly  err  our  I  think
[45:31] 
[45:31] a  PM's  job  in  general  is  to  basically
[45:34] 
[45:34] find  goals  to  get  you  know  to  galvanize
[45:38] 
[45:38] the  team  and  encourage  a  team  and  hold
[45:39] 
[45:39] the  line  to  make  sure  we're  all  moving
[45:40] 
[45:40] towards  those  goals  I  think  a  lot  of
[45:43] 
[45:43] product  designs  job  is  to  manifest  the
[45:46] 
[45:46] solution  you  know  we're  in  a  lot  of  ways
[45:48] 
[45:48] the  front  door  of  everything  and  then
[45:51] 
[45:51] for  engineering  I  think  obviously
[45:53] 
[45:53] they're  implementing  the  thing  but  it's
[45:54] 
[45:54] also  up  to  them  to  like  we  involve
[45:56] 
[45:56] engineers  really  early  in  the  process
[45:57] 
[45:57] like  they're  they're  helping  us  set
[45:59] 
[45:59] these  objectives  they're  sitting  in  and
[46:01] 
[46:01] user  research  sessions  they're  there
[46:02] 
[46:02] thinking  about  what  problem  statements
[46:04] 
[46:04] were  working  at
[46:05] 
[46:05] and  for  them  I  think  like  obviously  the
[46:08] 
[46:08] responsibilities  to  me  make  sure  it's
[46:09] 
[46:09] good  but  it's  also  like  service
[46:11] 
[46:11] technical  constraints  to  think  of  like
[46:12] 
[46:12] clever  ways  to  to  make  sure  these  things
[46:14] 
[46:14] are  being  implemented  in  a  robust  way
[46:16] 
[46:16] but  also  a  quick  way  making  sure  that  it
[46:19] 
[46:19] fits  in  with  sort  of  that  larger
[46:20] 
[46:20] infrastructure  that  we  built  so  PN
[46:23] 
[46:23] stream  you're  like  they're  the  ones  that
[46:24] 
[46:24] are  making  sure  the  boat  is  pointed  in
[46:26] 
[46:26] the  right  direction  and  for  us  we  think
[46:28] 
[46:28] a  lot  about  sort  of  role  blending  right
[46:30] 
[46:30] so  in  the  case  that  there's  some
[46:32] 
[46:32] disagreement  and  you  know  maybe  the
[46:35] 
[46:35] designer  and  the  engineer  disagree  the
[46:37] 
[46:37] PM  can  help  tie  break  in  the  case  that
[46:39] 
[46:39] the  whole  team  is  kind  of  rattling  a
[46:42] 
[46:42] little  bit  well  we  have  pillar
[46:44] 
[46:44] leadership  to  kind  of  help  be  like  cool
[46:45] 
[46:45] let's  talk  about  it  like  let's  find  the
[46:47] 
[46:47] best  desirable  outcomes  so  ideally  it's
[46:49] 
[46:49] not  like  I  own  this  you  own  this  this
[46:51] 
[46:51] other  person  owns  this  we  really  want
[46:53] 
[46:53] everyone  to  feel  like  no  I  own  the
[46:55] 
[46:55] problem  and  I'm  excited  about  solving
[46:56] 
[46:56] this  customer  pain  for  people  um  and
[46:59] 
[46:59] that's  no  more  PM  that  it  is  designer
[47:01] 
[47:01] than  it  is  engineer  so  we  do  talk  a  lot
[47:03] 
[47:03] about  role  blending  and  feeling  like
[47:04] 
[47:04] certainly  we  have  responsibilities  but
[47:06] 
[47:06] we're  not  siloing  ourselves  away  from
[47:08] 
[47:08] each  other  same  reason  we  all  all  the
[47:11] 
[47:11] teams  sit  together  like  in  close
[47:13] 
[47:13] proximity  which  helps  a  lot  I  think
[47:16] 
[47:16] that's  a  good  point  to  like  finish  ed
[47:17] 
[47:17] right  maybe  they're  good  we'll  do  that
[47:21] 
[47:21] thank  you  so  much  Tyson  thank  you  it  was
[47:24] 
[47:24] great  having  you  and  see  you  next  week
[47:26] 
[47:26] sousou-san  was  the  podcast  on  YouTube  in
[47:29] 
[47:29] Tacoma  Riley  Spotify  iTunes  Google
[47:32] 
[47:32] podcasts  ebooks  yatras  plataforma  z--
[47:34] 
[47:34] para  Newport  arrows  ninguna  bezel  yo
[47:36] 
[47:36] tambien  the  Fidesz  recipe  request  roca
[47:39] 
[47:39] río  suscribe  endorse  and  watch  the  news
[47:40] 
[47:40] later  an  evening  punto  net
[47:44] 
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[47:52] [Music]